Skarner Rework Follow Through

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Lord Mordor

Senior Member

02-14-2014

what are your thoughts about removing the need to prime Q to get its extra-damage...it used to need that to give a target a small chance to get away before the perma slow kicked in. Since it no longer has a slow is it really necessary to hit it twice to get its full damage values?


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Siigari

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

Oh and another thing. Everything about Skarner now is silly. EVERY. SINGLE. THING about him requires "time" to have him become effective. What? Why?


Q: Takes about 4-5 seconds to gain full attack speed bonus. Why?
W: Takes 3 seconds to reach full speeed. Why?
E: Takes about the same amount of time to reach the target slowed if hit at 50%-100% range. Why?
R: Can be ESCAPED in a 0.25 second delay. WHY?


I don't feel Skarner should have to use his W to make his E worth it. Nothing about Skarner's old kit relied on another ability to make one ability worthwhile. If I have to charge in with W to make E work that's poor design.


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Terchio

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This has been very useful feedback and looking at early data suggests that he's struggling much more in the early game than the late game. I'm tentatively looking to put together some changes for next patch:

-E missile width increase
-E slow values increased (especially at low ranks)
-Maybe mana cost improvements

A few things about these changes:
-We don't want to over buff him and have to nerf him again in the future, so keep that in mind.
-We want to make E a much better 1 point ability to help his early ganks
-We want to generally increase the CC payoff for hitting the E because of the difficulty/risk of landing it

These changes aren't final so please share your feedback.

-Scruffy
Skarner seriously gimps too much on specific items, particularly slows. With a kit that revolves around his passive as it does, that's still not going to work for a rework. He counts on that passive to reach an enemy, and then more to stay with the enemy. His cooldowns are massive if he can't get in 3 or more strikes (preferably more). With the large amount of chasers that can't be evaded now (Lee Sin, Akali, Kha'Zix, Irelia, Jax, Sejuani, Mundo, and more, all with real dashes or ranged permaslow), a piddly melee slow is simply not OP anymore, which is why everyone quit him, and frankly, it's central to his kit. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

Seriously, who indicated it would be okay to substitute slow for shield speed buff? We were all whining about how easy the shield is to break in real fights, that won't work...


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This has been very useful feedback and looking at early data suggests that he's struggling much more in the early game than the late game. I'm tentatively looking to put together some changes for next patch:

-E missile width increase
-E slow values increased (especially at low ranks)
-Maybe mana cost improvements

A few things about these changes:
-We don't want to over buff him and have to nerf him again in the future, so keep that in mind.
-We want to make E a much better 1 point ability to help his early ganks
-We want to generally increase the CC payoff for hitting the E because of the difficulty/risk of landing it

These changes aren't final so please share your feedback.

-Scruffy
You NEED to add in a 2nd CC proc of some kind for detonating E's leftover marks. They look bad on your part for being there and not doing anything, and Skarner can't function if he has to use W and E to close the gap with no follow-up.

Try to test that, please.

Almost everyone would love getting the heal back as well for laning. It would create a "Do I want to heal or save my E for CC" trade-off in lane as well.

Also, I love how you're so oblivious to the fact that E or W need significant changes or CD reductions. His kit won't function under your current design.


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Vlaadokash

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This has been very useful feedback and looking at early data suggests that he's struggling much more in the early game than the late game. I'm tentatively looking to put together some changes for next patch:

-E missile width increase
-E slow values increased (especially at low ranks)
-Maybe mana cost improvements

A few things about these changes:
-We don't want to over buff him and have to nerf him again in the future, so keep that in mind.
-We want to make E a much better 1 point ability to help his early ganks
-We want to generally increase the CC payoff for hitting the E because of the difficulty/risk of landing it

These changes aren't final so please share your feedback.

-Scruffy
Still talking through us and not to us Scruffy. You arent a politician so please stop the spin.


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NovaSpectre

Senior Member

02-14-2014

The massive range on that slow (E) has potential to be good. The rest of it? If Skarner isn't packing Frozen Mallet or Iceborn gauntlet, he's underwhelming. If he misses his slow, he's not gonna catch up; part of this is because his movespeed steroid has to ramp up and the max value is underwhelming (and the fact that it's useless if the meager shield is popped.) Even if he lands his slow and and uses his movespeed to catch up... he can't stick afterward without the above items. Udyr has his own movespeed steroid that is reliable and can be refreshed fairly often, as well as a stun to help him stick. Skarner does not. The whole concept of Skarner is that when he catches you, it is hard to escape his grasp. Now? He's a brawler that can pursue a fleeing target to finish them off, but not much else.

EDIT: Actually, upon further reflection, Skarner's meant to be a close range brawler right? WTH is he doing building AP? There no way he can build enough AD, AP, and defenses to justify trying to go toe to toe with ANY carry. I mean, what's he going to build, Zhonyas? Abyssal Scepter may be viable, since his Q does magic damage. But dang, with all those auto attacks and no burst, he's gonna need Life steal. That's tied to AD items or Hextech Gunblade. Maybe BotRK?

How the heck am I supposed to build Skarner to take advantage of his kit's design AND the AP scaling?


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

02-14-2014

Yeah. I'm seriously uninstalling if the next patch doesn't show significant changes. I'll refuse to support them after that.

This company has gone so downhill.


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This has been very useful feedback and looking at early data suggests that he's struggling much more in the early game than the late game. I'm tentatively looking to put together some changes for next patch:

-E missile width increase
-E slow values increased (especially at low ranks)
-Maybe mana cost improvements

A few things about these changes:
-We don't want to over buff him and have to nerf him again in the future, so keep that in mind.
-We want to make E a much better 1 point ability to help his early ganks
-We want to generally increase the CC payoff for hitting the E because of the difficulty/risk of landing it

These changes aren't final so please share your feedback.

-Scruffy
What I'd imagine after those changes (if you include the mana cost reductions) would be:

-He'll have a better skill to leave at one point (E obviously) so he doesn't feel as weak until he's leveled all 3 of them
-His W will still feel underwhelming. Even if it's numerically balanced, the slow ramp up will make it feel weaker than it really is to the person playing him. I think the ramp up time should either be made quicker, made to go in the opposite direction (getting slower over time) or just completely removed in favor of a flat movespeed boost so that the ability feels more satisfying for the person playing as him.
-Without access to more long term CC than only his E which has a long cooldown, he will still be missing a major part of his identity. I understand you think his perma slow on Q was toxic (which I don't agree with), but it was still one of the biggest things that made Skarner feel like Skarner, without something similar to that he won't feel like the same champion anymore. This absolutely needs to be fixed if you want old Skarner players to feel happy about the rework.
-In lane, he still has not been compensated for losing his heal. Please do not forget about his ability to lane when making your changes.


I have some questions, if you could answer any of them I'd really appreciate it:

-What about the slow on his Q made it toxic? Why was it considered bad for him to have this in his kit when other forms of long lasting slows like Red Buff, Frozen Mallet, Frost Shot, etc. also exist?
-How does his win rate with Smite compare to his win rate without it (or more specifically, as a jungler compared to as a laner)? Do the two win rates change at different rates as rating goes up?
-Have you thought about keeping the mark his E used to apply, but possibly adding some other sort of effect (example: Hitting someone with the mark on them could extend the slow for a bit longer)?
-If his Q has two parts (not sure if that's the best wording, but the part that scales with AD and the 2nd part that scales with AP that you have to build up to get), why does the attack speed portion stack 3 times? If feels odd to me. Also have you tested a version of the attack speed buff that functions like Jinx's Q, where it lowers the buff by one portion at a time instead of taking the entire thing away at once?


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Khell DarkWolf

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This has been very useful feedback and looking at early data suggests that he's struggling much more in the early game than the late game. I'm tentatively looking to put together some changes for next patch:

-E missile width increase
-E slow values increased (especially at low ranks)
-Maybe mana cost improvements

A few things about these changes:
-We don't want to over buff him and have to nerf him again in the future, so keep that in mind.
-We want to make E a much better 1 point ability to help his early ganks
-We want to generally increase the CC payoff for hitting the E because of the difficulty/risk of landing it

These changes aren't final so please share your feedback.

-Scruffy
In an honesty, tuning the E to be better is not going to fix this.

We have already stated what the issues are several times already.

Skarner's passive is moot because of the fact for what reason does he benefit from getting to fire off his abilities faster and quicker?

Q might deal damage and give a ramping up attack speed, but that damage is very null and not centric to his kit other then to plug a hole for his jungling clearing speed assuming you got the mana to spam it.

W is a shield with a now ramping up movement speed buff that breaks when the shield is destroyed.

E is now the slow, but even with that said it is on such a high cooldown and the issue has been how is Skarner supposed to flow if he has no real sticking power after using Fracture? And then what does he really contribute and do after that phase for his team?

The changes to Q for attack speed doesn't let him become a split pusher.
He no longer has permaslow so he cannot be a defensive peeler or punish people from staying in an engagement that got in range of him.


His kit just doesn't mesh together anymore as it currently is, he has no real role and his usefulness is...really non-existent.

I said before, everyone is thinking Skarner has to be an initiator for the team and be used on the offensive.

Honestly I find this to be untrue, he excelled better as a defensive champion like Sejuani when he had his permaslow Q and could peel champions off your priority targets on your team.

This change, to be frank. Leaves Skarner like a sub-optimal Udyr with a one skill slow without the bear stance.

We're trying to give you feedback Scruffy. Please don't pass it up.

EDIT: His kit needs to flow on its own. Not be dependent on items in order to do something he was already intended to do.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

02-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This has been very useful feedback and looking at early data suggests that he's struggling much more in the early game than the late game. I'm tentatively looking to put together some changes for next patch:

-E missile width increase
-E slow values increased (especially at low ranks)
-Maybe mana cost improvements
That sounds about good, though it'll have to be a really strong slow to consider playing him in a game with Elise or Vi in it.