Let's talk about Elise

First Riot Post
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EckHearT Geminus

Senior Member

02-13-2014

running into her with boots of speed should do 10000 true damage to her while she is in her spider form.


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SZEFEN

Recruiter

02-13-2014

I feel like I'm going to be useful even when behind and I'm able to make mistakes and not be punished as hard as on other junglers.


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Lord Visari

Senior Member

02-13-2014

I like playing her as an assassin, surprising people is always fun.


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XxMatrixNinjaxX

Member

02-13-2014

What I like about Elise and why I pick her:
Versatility: She can be built full damage to very tanky allowing you to adapt. She has two forms with different strengths (Human form has range and CC, whereas Spider form has mobility and greater DPS.) However, it appears that this is what most people dislike about her as her only major weakness is team fighting.
Interaction between abilities: Her abilities all have interactions that make them more useful. Her human Q is better when they have more health and her spider Q is better when they are low. Her human W flies to whoever she uses spider Q on. These interactions make you feel skilled when you execute them and it is fun to optimize her abilities.
Outplay Potential: If you play her right, you can defeat enemies you otherwise would not. Poke them down before engaging or using spider E to dodge there damage. It is very fulfilling to successfully use her skills in a combo and then defeat her opponent.
Theme: She actually feels like a spider hunting her prey. She is also, except maybe Cass, the only female monster champion right now.

What I dislike about Elise:
Late Game: She is less useful late game as she lacks a true ultimate. Her abilities are most useful in smaller fights (All but one is single target and it is difficult to use her fully in team fights.) Even Lee Sin has the possibility of using his ultimate Her spiderlings are also more easily killed by the AoE of team fights. Although this is a decent way to lower her power, but it might be best to lower the disparity between these two stages.
All or Nothing: If she can't kill the enemy MVP/carry, she does not feel useful. She doesn't possess too many methods of helping her team, only one stun and the possibility of providing vision with human W.
Hidden Power: Much of her power is less visible than in some champions. Her spiderlings provide damage and can provide survivabilty (targeting by towers and I think blocking skillshots) and you have to pay attention to actually notice just how powerful they truly are. The lack of a big ultimate that shows obvious power also contributes to this.

tl;dr Her kits versatility and synergy is enjoyable but might be too powerful. She also has problems in team fights.

This power could be partially moved to her team fighting, making her have more weaknesses by removing power from some area. It might be best to lower her base damage and possibly increase her AP scaling or utility if needed so that she must make a harder choice between tankiness and damage.


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Riot Jag

Associate Technical Design

02-13-2014
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Many have pointed out that her primarily single-target focused kit is part of the reason why she doesn't feel as strong in larger teamfights, especially later game, as she does in smaller scale skirmishes. It seems like most of you are okay with this and feel like this is a weakness that emphasizes playing to her strengths (i.e. it makes hitting your Cocoon and other single target spells on a high value target more important). Is that a fair assessment?


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Cenobite Azaziel

Senior Member

02-13-2014

I liked the structure that @Avlivar used. So:

Who am I?
---------
Main jungle BR, Gold V. Mains: Vi, Seijuani, Hecarin. Can play as Lee sin and Elise.


What I enjoy
---------
I really enjoy her rappel, it makes me feel really good to dodge something important, or to quickly escape on a jungle / lane minion off in the distance.

The Ganks are similar to Vi and lee sin. Quick engage and high burst while being tanky.

Fast clear Human form W+Q, Spider Q+W + spiders tank before spirit stone.


What I don't enjoy
---------

Point and click %. Why can I build tanky and still have so much utility AND burst? Others junglers % are low range or skill shots.



What is wrong with her:


Elise doesn't need a remake. The main problem is that she is way to powerful in every aspect in the jungle.

1- Passive gives spiders that help her clear and tank the 1st clear and still, W spider form deals a ton of damage.
2- Her ganks are way too strong with burst AND CC.
3- Does not have a weakness. "Oh no Ult."- Good at tanking while bursting, clearing and ganking.

Let's analise Some of the other "I don't have an ult shame on me =[" to find where is the right path to nerf.

Jayce had a overloaded kit and his gate got nerfed to the ground. No cooldown scaling because of the burst. Alone, the gate is a skill that is rarely used to buff the speed, it is used to combo with Q.

When jace uses his R he gets a small and temporary buffs.

His power and lack of ult is distributed in his kit. Jayce passive (hex tech capacitor isn't worth mentioning).


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Udyr. While the whole league ( expect for quinn and udyr) has a kit that works together, udyr has to pick, "Tiger or phoenix". Got no ult and can be spanked by lee sin and elise in the jungle if he tries to counter jungle. What a joke.


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Nidalee - No ult, but she has to reach lvl 6 to get her cougar form. Why? Probably would be too toxic in the jungle. Quick clear, insane sustain, mobility and kick ass damage. Why can;t she have the cougar form lvl 1?


-

Heimer/Karma.

Trade the ult for a empowered skill. While karma has to pick wich skill is more relevant at the moment, elise can dump the 6 anytime she wants because of the R low CD..

Heimer has a highcooldown on the ult because of the high burst.
--

So, what are the options? Nerf an aspect of her. Ganking, clearing, high burst. GIVE HER A IDENTITY. Is she a fast clear type, ganking with CC+tanky or burst?


Jungle clear - make her the same as nidalee. Spider form only at lvl 6. Delay her early game while she mainting the mid and late game. A lot of junglers have weak ganks before lvl 6. Elise still would have 2 bursts and a CC.

Burst - Make the habilites interact with each other. Make human form E deal a burning damage and only stuns if another skills hit. Probably turn the Q into a skill shot. Make elise deserve the BURST she has. The same way they nerfed jayce.


2-Burst- Nerf the spiders. The spiders make her clear way to easy, gives her a free shield in the jungle and against skill shots during ganks and the W alone deals a ton of damage not because of AA of elise, what hurts is the damage of her and the spiders.

3- Burst - Two times % damage on the Q? Gee, give some of that to Udyr too.. he has no ultimate too...


4- Mobility - So rapel can get you in the fights and out of them needing creeps or monsters+ward. You just vanish out of thin air and can drop ANYWHERE in a large radius.

Compare to fizz trickster/vlad pool or talon ult.

Fizz will come back and has a low reach. You have a slight idea where he is going to drop, and if he still wanna run away, will probably waste a Q in the process to get the same Elise rapel range. Trickster isn't the main source of fizz burst. He is an assassin.

Vlad pool- Intagible but you know were he is going and can chase him. Mage DPS. Low damage on that skill

Talon - Ult, get invisible, can still get bursted by AOE or lenses/pink ward.Yet, it is ult and he is a assassin. Still, low dmg on that skill.


A skill that should be weaker ( Let's compensate her not having a ult by giving her 6 skills) has a power level similar to normal skills. No damage and the need to have a creep nearby doen'st justify it's power. No creeps? Well free zonya.

The nerf I propose to that skill probably is going to kill a fun part of elise. MAke it a jump (Seijuani/panteon Leblanc...), give it a little bit damage, make her tangible. Option 2 - Rapel can be only used targeting heroes. Nerfs a litte a bit, but still to strong [fRee zonya, awesome ganks continue). Get a higher cooldown on rapel. Wanna gank? Be sure you can survive. Hecarim got his E CD raped because of that and vlad has a CD on the pool.

5- Nerf her tankyness - Stats nerf.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

02-13-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Jag View Post
Many have pointed out that her primarily single-target focused kit is part of the reason why she doesn't feel as strong in larger teamfights, especially later game, as she does in smaller scale skirmishes. It seems like most of you are okay with this and feel like this is a weakness that that emphasizes playing to her strengths (i.e. it makes hitting your cocoon and other single target spells on a high value target more important). Is that a fair assessment?
Yes. Just because a champion doesn't excel in all situations doesn't mean they are bad. It is good for champions to have a clear weakness or disadvantage and for Elise that is large skirmishes.


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Windstorm

Member

02-13-2014

Tbh Elise is currently so strong because Mpen is so strong and her sustain for jungling was designed before the current spirit items existed.

with that being said, nearly every time I play her I play her as a carry jungle in S4. as a champion she brings a lot of early game power and versatility to a role (jungling) that traditionally doesn't really ever get much of either. thematically she's always screamed jungle assassin to me, and always been special since her release day was the same day I started playing.

if you intend to hit her with the nerf bat, do a systems health check on magic pen first, because a huge number of your current unbalanced champion cases are all directly related to how strong magic penetration is (kass, evelynn, anything else AP based with any kind of burst pattern). if you still intend to whack her with a shoe, then the best change would be to nerf her sustain and human form Q, since that would reduce her active jungle time between backs and the human form Q would weaken her trades and dueling without doing too much damage to her viability overall.

her popularity as a jungler is directly connected to how hard the jungle was on many characters to sustain through (the results of introducing better gold and sustain are still shaking out) and the fact that champions like lee-sin, vi and olaf have such dueling power and are commonly picked. jungling has also always favored early game power over mid and late game power because that is when your ability to affect the course of a game is at its highest if you can set your lanes up towards a win in the early game, unless you and your team do something stupid the ball usually rolls in your favor. long games are usually an indication of low jungle pressure (champion choices or bad decisions).

elise has one unusual advantage in that her decision point on whether to build purely offensive or also be a tank is slightly shifted since you can buy a haunting guise and sorc boots (leaving the spirit item choice to slightly later) since both builds leverage these early items. most AD champs that can make this kind of choice have to do so at the moment of first back.

TL;DR high pick rate on elise has as much to do with current game balance and design as it does her qualities as a champion

p.s. : rework her completely or olaf her and I am done with this game, regardless of time or money invested. she is my most played champ for more reasons than game power.

edit: additional comments from another post on the subject of magic pen

Quote:
it (mpen) is also one of the same compounding factors making other AP burst casters like ahri, fizz, kassadin and kayle nightmares in sequence, I'm sure another burst ap will be on the chopping block soon enough (looking at you leblanc). this is going to keep happening until they fix that broken system by making it not a default choice due to price and availability compared to its counter.


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Raamroc

Senior Member

02-13-2014

one of my favorite junglers for the raw damage, healing with spiderlings and for safe smiting with Q and smite combo


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Overlord Etherea

Senior Member

02-13-2014

Yup, Landing the stun is nearly the most important thing on elise.