Why is CertainlyT a game designer?

First Riot Post
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SouL1ess

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Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Lastly, design principles like 'counterplay' are relative principles we weigh against other priorities. Counterplay constantly is at odds with 'satisfying gameplay' and 'player agency', and finding the exact right balance is hard. Right now, we think the game could be more heavily weighted on counterplay. We also think our game, overall, differentiates on counterplay. But we don't maximize counterplay at all costs in all situations, because that would make a worse game.
Last paragraph speaks the truth...

I knew that the advertisement for counterplay would impact champion diversity because it is in direct opposition as satisfaction. The lack of counterplay, when compared to champions of similar powerlevel but have counterplay, makes them relatively overpowered because they outclass others. Therefore, new mechanics will be difficult to implement because of their strength relative to previous designs. The last sentence would require some extreme insight to pull off, because if counterplay is not properly emphasized for all champions you easily form a favourited group of champions based on reliability alone.


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øLordSeth

Senior Member

02-08-2014

OP needs to kill himself, glad Riot appreciates some of the best champions in the league, except for Darius, never really had much fun playing with or against him.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouL1ess View Post
Last paragraph speaks the truth...

I knew that the advertisement for counterplay would impact champion diversity because it is in direct opposition as satisfaction. The lack of counterplay, when compared to champions of similar powerlevel but have counterplay, makes them relatively overpowered because they outclass others. Therefore, new mechanics will be difficult to implement because of their strength relative to previous designs. The last sentence would require some extreme insight to pull off, because if counterplay is not properly emphasized for all champions you easily form a favourited group of champions based on reliability alone.
I don't think it's that bad, because counterplay is a spectrum, not a 'has counterplay' vs 'lacks counterplay' choice.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouL1ess View Post
Last paragraph speaks the truth...

I knew that the advertisement for counterplay would impact champion diversity because it is in direct opposition as satisfaction. The lack of counterplay, when compared to champions of similar powerlevel but have counterplay, makes them relatively overpowered because they outclass others. Therefore, new mechanics will be difficult to implement because of their strength relative to previous designs. The last sentence would require some extreme insight to pull off, because if counterplay is not properly emphasized for all champions you easily form a favourited group of champions based on reliability alone.
See: Vi. You can't stop her ult. You can only hope to either A) never get in range, which is difficult in a game with flash or B) make her end up in a situation she really doesn't want to be in, which most good players won't allow. It's one of the reasons she's so popular right now.


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Vayne is my life

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
See: Vi. You can't stop her ult. You can only hope to either A) never get in range, which is difficult in a game with flash or B) make her end up in a situation she really doesn't want to be in, which most good players won't allow. It's one of the reasons she's so popular right now.
I really think Vi is the only champ I don't like. Q flash ulting me from across the map followed through with some sort of hard CC is pretty bs when she can come from so many obstacles that aren't in reach from any other champ. How do you properly counterplay flash q ults from that far away


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Hellioning

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vayne is my life View Post
I really think Vi is the only champ I don't like. Q flash ulting me from across the map followed through with some sort of hard CC is pretty bs when she can come from so many obstacles that aren't in reach from any other champ. How do you properly counterplay flash q ults from that far away
I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it if she couldn't do so much damage with a hydra and lizard elder. It's basically a 'kill her before she kills you' situation if you're an adc and she ults you, and she gets a shield.

I also hate how flash Q-ing works.


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Rivini

Senior Member

02-09-2014

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Originally Posted by Mechanical Heart View Post
What? Thresh passive is amazing. What's wrong with Thresh's soul passive?

Or do you mean the passive on his E? I guess that's not really necessary. It's kind of nice to be able to do some damage though.
According to Riot, supports shouldn't be dealing damage.

Honestly, Thresh could lose the E passive and would still retain his ability to support. I don't know why he should have that extra damage when his abilities hurt by themselves already.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I don't think it's that bad, because counterplay is a spectrum, not a 'has counterplay' vs 'lacks counterplay' choice.
You should probably differentiate between "counterplay" and 'panic button gameplay'.

You tend to add a lot of panic buttons to the game where if the player feels threatened at all, that player can usually immediately push a single button to get out of it.

This yields degenerate gameplay into passivity, because certain kinds of champions exploit this very well: Safe sustained damage dealers. Marksmen.

And because this yields both mechanical power and loss of enemy satisfaction, the counter to it gets implemented: Ever more powerful gapclosers, Tanky DPS, CC, Burst.

Also highly unsatisfying for enemies. But since you're trying to preserve this 'panic button gameplay', almost all burst gets these little 'teasing' delays, .5 seconds, 1 second, where technically the enemy has a chance to push the escape button.
But often, if it's on cooldown (Flash), or simply ineffective, it may only amplify the dissatisfaction of a mostly inevitable death. (Kha'Zix)

So on goes the cycle of more and more dissatisfying gameplay between Ranged DPS that will kill you if they live to Tanky DPS with titanic base damage that survives to get into burst range.

Combined with the abandonment of innovation in favor of the repetition of class-based 'archetypal' methods of implementing that cycle, it may yield the slow deterioration of a game.

Garen to Darius. Blitzcrank to Thresh. Yi to Fiora to Yasuo.

In essence, minor variants of the same theme, yielding many 'strictly betters' for a particular metagame, which seems to at core never change.

Terrorblade isn't Naga Siren. They have some similar skills, but at core, the gameplay and its application may differ significantly. Terrorblade doesn't have Song, Naga doesn't have Sunder.

The way they play can vary in response to the player's decisions: Does Naga build Radiance to splitpush, or Mekansm to support?

Not locked to the designers' restrictions in an attempt to preserve a 'panic button' based cycle of lane mirror matches between classes held there by fragile towers which shut down a lot of aggression through devastating damage, and low sustain to withstand it.


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Theras Arkna

Senior Member

02-09-2014

The funny thing is, the only 2 certainlyt champions lacking counterplay are Zed and Yasou, and Yas has it, it's just not really exploitable because his shield is overtuned. Zed is also much less snowbally than other assassins because so much of his damage is tied up in his ult, which is a trade off for his safety and reliability.


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Cya later Nerds

Senior Member

02-09-2014

he's a great designer