Why is CertainlyT a game designer?

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JetLiWithBifocal

Senior Member

02-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceaselessphantom View Post
In order to out play something it needs to have weaknesses.
Um, no, that's 100% incorrect. In order to outplay something, you need to outplay it. Exploiting a weakness isn't outplaying, it's just exploiting a weakness. = =

Quote:
For one since the game is now balanced around everyone being over loaded this means the complete death of champions who are strong in one area in exchange for being weak in others. If you think that is a good thing a game designer is something you should not be.
Being overloaded doesn't mean that champs can't be strong in one area and weak in others. I think you don't know what overloaded means. Perhaps you're the one who shouldn't be a game designer because you don't even know what fun is. This is made further apparent by the fact that the majority of people in this thread seem to like CT's designs. Maybe they're just "stupid", though, right? Right?


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Arsenals

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Senior Member

02-09-2014

His champions are without a doubt some of the coolest/most fun ones. The numbers are the problem, not the kits (with the exception of Thresh).

Also, Darius was never OP. He was always pretty bad.


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Arsenals

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Senior Member

02-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLiWithBifocal View Post
Um, no, that's 100% incorrect. In order to outplay something, you need to outplay it. Exploiting a weakness isn't outplaying, it's just exploiting a weakness. = =
If we're playing basketball and I know your right hand is your stronger hand, I'm going to force you left. I'm going to attack your left hand/foot on offense as well. This is using my knowledge of you/skills to out-perform/play you.

Exploiting a weakness is out-playing. Using tumble/flash/etc to dodge a skill-shot is outplaying. If they had a targeted ability, I wouldn't of been able to dodge their ability (so in this case, having a skillshot was a weakness that got exploited).


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-09-2014
1 of 5 Riot Posts

I believe Thresh, Yasuo and Darius were the ones he was the primary game designer throughout the champion's development.

To answer your question, the reason he is a designer at Riot is that he provides innovative, interesting game design results that players respond well to. I agree that Darius while conceptually strong has a lot of game mechanical issues in his pattern, especially around counterplay on the R, and I'm sure he would agree as well. I also think that Thresh and Yasuo are great mechanical additions overall.

When we add new mechanical sets, or have mechanics that have high mastery points (optimizations you can make as you practice), the play balance is inherently more challenging. I know this is a current frustration point for some with perceptions around Yasuo, but the game is ultimately better by having these sorts of champions added, and we do get them to a state of balance pretty quickly if they ship and are not.

Lastly, design principles like 'counterplay' are relative principles we weigh against other priorities. Counterplay constantly is at odds with 'satisfying gameplay' and 'player agency', and finding the exact right balance is hard. Right now, we think the game could be more heavily weighted on counterplay. We also think our game, overall, differentiates on counterplay. But we don't maximize counterplay at all costs in all situations, because that would make a worse game.


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JetLiWithBifocal

Senior Member

02-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenals View Post
If we're playing basketball and I know your right hand is your stronger hand, I'm going to force you left. I'm going to attack your left hand/foot on offense as well. This is using my knowledge of you/skills to out-perform/play you.
Um, no. Kicking someone in the balls to win a fight isn't outplaying that person. It's exploiting a weakness. Winning a fight against someone twice your size is outplaying. Derp.
Quote:
Exploiting a weakness is out-playing. Using tumble/flash/etc to dodge a skill-shot is outplaying. If they had a targeted ability, I wouldn't of been able to dodge their ability (so in this case, having a skillshot was a weakness that got exploited).
That's not, no, no, no, that's not how that works. What drugs are you taking?


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JunkRamen

Senior Member

02-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Yasuo, but the game is ultimately better by having these sorts of champions added, and we do get them to a state of balance pretty quickly if they ship and are not.
But you guys buffed him when he was already on the rise to ban tier...


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MoonsBane

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Senior Member

02-09-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I believe Thresh, Yasuo and Darius were the ones he was the primary game designer throughout the champion's development.

To answer your question, the reason he is a designer at Riot is that he provides innovative, interesting game design results that players respond well to. I agree that Darius while conceptually strong has a lot of game mechanical issues in his pattern, especially around counterplay on the R, and I'm sure he would agree to. I also think that Thresh and Yasuo are great mechanical additions overall.

When we add new mechanical sets, or have mechanics that have high mastery points (optimizations you can make as you practice), the play balance is inherently more challenging. I know this is a current frustration point for some with perceptions around Yasuo, but the game is ultimately better by having these sorts of champions added, and we do get them to a state of balance pretty quickly if they ship and are not.

Lastly, design principles like 'counterplay' are relative principles we weigh against other priorities. Counterplay constantly is at odds with 'satisfying gameplay' and 'player agency', and finding the exact right balance is hard. Right now, we think the game could be more heavily weighted on counterplay. We also think our game, overall, differentiates on counterplay. But we don't maximize counterplay at all costs in all situations, because that would make a worse game.
Well said. People also have to remember that (or at least they used to) Live balance decides their final numbers, not the designers. IE; Xypherous says he hates riven and Naut's current states. He designed Riven to have lower base damage all around (Her ults steroid and all that) and lower health regen (at one point she had the highest) but live balanced buffed those. Naut was supposed to have 280 MS (back when 300 was the lowest) to make up for his galactic f***tun of CC yet live balance changed this as well. Months later he gets nerfed for all his CC.

So remember guys, it's okay to call out the designers but they're NOT the ones who get the final say.

Except in the case of Yasuo. Fk that guy. (<3 you CT) People need to explore his counters. Just made a yasou go 0-5 and they surrendered at 20 because he fp'd him. Swain mains rejoice our time is upon us.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

02-09-2014

My primary problem with CertainlyT is that he makes these interesting, fun to play kits, and then adds stuff they don't really need. Like, Thresh has CC and utility for days, why on earth does he need free damage on his autoattacks for harass? Why does Yasuo need double crit chance, given he already gets 50% bonus armor pen for successfully ulting? Why does Darius get to do all three types of damage when that sort of thing on Irelia was incredibly frowned upon?

I also have issues that they are a nightmare to balance, but that's simply because most of the current kits are kinda terrible.


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ninjagear

Senior Member

02-09-2014

counterplay is important, but so are uncounterable combos

if there is no uncounterable combo no one would play, there would be no point, anything you could do would be stopped


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-09-2014
2 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
My primary problem with CertainlyT is that he makes these interesting, fun to play kits, and then adds stuff they don't really need. Like, Thresh has CC and utility for days, why on earth does he need free damage on his autoattacks for harass? Why does Yasuo need double crit chance, given he already gets 50% bonus armor pen for successfully ulting? Why does Darius get to do all three types of damage when that sort of thing on Irelia was incredibly frowned upon?

I also have issues that they are a nightmare to balance, but that's simply because most of the current kits are kinda terrible.
That is a totally fair critique on most of those. I think the double crit solves a specific power-curve goal that a melee carry pattern benefits from in a way that fits into the game (Tryndamere and Fiora have their own solutions to this). I agree that the Yasuo passive and Thresh damage passive are harder to defend, though, would likely be defended as "the character needed SOMETHING there to get to powerful enough". It would of course be better to replace with something that created a larger amount of gameplay, but we tend to prioritize filling in the key components of the character to be awesome, then adding power if we still need to in remaining areas.