I love how people think Kassadin and Yasuo are not OP because they have lane counters

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Anthropics

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Honestly? too soon to know yet, and likely to take time to fully know -- because he's a fairly complex champion that will take the community time to fully master.
Which is why we immediately buffed him when his release win rate was too low from people attempting to learn such a complex champion.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, if it's too soon to know now in spite of a 99% pick/ban rate then it was certainly too soon to buff his ultimate and that should be reverted, no?


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Hellioning

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
My other feeling is that if he is actually OP, and can be demonstrated to be so in a clear way, the core gameplay team will take care of it pretty quickly (and correctly).
You know, every time a red says this, I believe it less. I mean, sure, they're generally decent at ridiculously overpowered, but kassadin has been permabanned for how long? Annie has been crowding out other bot laners for how long? If it's merely a numbers issue, they're generally fine, but if you guys decide you have to rework his kit or something he's going to be unchanged for months.

I mean, I know you guys need to have faith in your colleagues, or at least pretend to, but it's getting kind of tiring hearing that again and again. Morello, for example, said that they were keeping a close eye on support utility ratios and how they might be crowded out by burst mages at the start of the season. We're apparently closing in on 4.2, and there have been very few support utility ratios showing up on the PBE, and Annie has barely been touched. Maybe it's a result of your patches been longer and longer apart, but I do not like the meta we are in, like, at all. It's getting kind of irritating being disadvantaged to playing my favorite champs because Sona is too squishy to survive a level 2 all in.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
10 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthropics View Post
Which is why we immediately buffed him when his release win rate was too low from people attempting to learn such a complex champion.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, if it's too soon to know now in spite of a 99% pick/ban rate then it was certainly too soon to buff his ultimate and that should be reverted, no?
I honestly don't know. Yasuo has a lot of possible skill-based optimization along with a fairly sensitive role, and that's a combination that is very challenging to balance and has a lot of sensitivity to community mastery. I wish we could ship a champion like that on day one and have it be perfect for everyone, but it's just not possible when we ship champions like Yasuo. All we can do is commit to resolving it moving forward if there is a problem, and I assure you, several very talented designers and QA analysts are thinking about this specific problem over the weekend.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
You can either take the position that you believe I'm being honest, or take the position that I'd explicitly lie to win a late-night forum argument that will have very little effect on the success of LoL but could really damage my personal reputation.
Have you ever seen a current employee speak ill of said company while not anonymous?

Me neither. Riot employees will say anything and everything to make themselves and their game seem appealing.


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Euthrosyne

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Zileas.

Two data points a good analysis does not make. Even if we can use a data point to make a theory, how do we verify the accuracy and precision of that assertion? Is that assertion even VALID with only 1 data point? Aside from the limited data we get from third-party sites, there's no true source of game data to work on.

From my perspective, I want to perform a compositional analysis on the Howling Abyss, but I don't have access to data that would really help me with that. I have single-hero numbers, without any friendly or enemy variables to influence them. So I can make theories, yes. But can I perform a detailed and thorough analysis of the meta that exists? No.

What would it take for an individual to get game data just to analyze on a mode that isn't even considered competitively balanced and irrelevant to 95% of all people? Do I have to snail mail an application in?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
11 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
Have you ever seen a current employee speak ill of said company while not anonymous?

Me neither. Riot employees will say anything and everything to make themselves and their game seem appealing.
Actually, I criticize myself, our company, and our game all the time, as do most people in the organization. I also really like working here. I think I criticize the game, myself, my past decisions, etc on the forums from time to time.

Honest self-criticality (or self-reflection if you prefer) is a big part of what our company is about, and that's not just in trying to build a better game.

It's true - We screw up often, because developing a game of LoL's complexity is challenging. If we didn't acknowledge the mistakes and weaknesses we have in our game and our company, we surely would not be able to fix them, and we also would not be able to improve our general approach over time.


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Kythers

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Yasuo's low winrate could be a product of how often he is banned as well, same with Kassadin. He gets into so little games in ranked that people kneejerk pick him with no clue what they're doing and do poorly. But then you see experienced Yasuo players' stats and they have something ridiculous like an 18 and 5 win record


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
12 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kythers View Post
Yasuo's low winrate could be a product of how often he is banned as well, same with Kassadin. He gets into so little games in ranked that people kneejerk pick him with no clue what they're doing and do poorly. But then you see experienced Yasuo players' stats and they have something ridiculous like an 18 and 5 win record
Entirely possible -- and we are continuing to monitor the situation.


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Actually, I criticize myself, our company, and our game all the time, as do most people in the organization. I also really like working here. I think I criticize the game, myself, my past decisions, etc on the forums from time to time.

Honest self-criticality (or self-reflection if you prefer) is a big part of what our company is about, and that's not just in trying to build a better game.

It's true - We screw up often, because developing a game of LoL's complexity is challenging. If we didn't acknowledge the mistakes and weaknesses we have in our game and our company, we surely would not be able to fix them, and we also would not be able to improve our general approach over time.
Posts with humility are a strategy designed to make a faceless company seem down to earth and relatable by the audience.

#LytePsychologicalTricks


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Khristophoros

The Council

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Couldn't of said it better myself. Since I've hopefully caught you Khristophoros I request your feedback on something. I always value your input whenever I can get it and this post of yours is a prime example of why.
Well I did make a reply to your first thread on that explaining a fundamental flaw I see in the mechanic.

I don't like the idea of Morde being rewarded for getting his shield up only to run away and let it drain into the metal meter.

My theory about why people play lame is because there is incentive to play lame. If you give the player a reason to turtle, run away, avoid interaction, then the player will do those things.

There's a big difference between giving the player the means to avoid interaction, and giving them a reward for avoiding interaction. I see your idea as a concept that gives the player a reward for avoiding interaction until they achieve that reward.

I understand that you said it would be subtle bonuses but if it's supposed to be an important thing for the Morde player to manage then it will have an effect on how they play. When it is tuned such that the player cares about it, they will play to get it.

I can see the reasoning behind giving Morde's opponent an incentive to engage on Morde, but I think giving Morde the opposite incentive defeats the purpose. Example: Nidalee is a very extreme case of this.