I love how people think Kassadin and Yasuo are not OP because they have lane counters

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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaeta View Post
I think he's fine too, shield is overtuned though.
Indeed, incredibly so. He can walk around with full shield then refresh it instantly. Not even Mordekaiser can do that and Mordekaiser is THE shield champion. Hell his max shield is even 60 higher than Mordes.


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Morior Invictis

Senior Member

02-08-2014

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Originally Posted by Easyaeta View Post
I think he's fine too, shield is overtuned though.
You must be one of the 0.4%.


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Khristophoros

The Council

02-08-2014

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Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
In the case of Kassadin, being OP or not is not what really drives his frustration level, it's more than in a lot of situations, he will just execute his thing, and either succeed or fail entirely on his execution and stats -- not based on enemy reaction. In other words -- no potential for rich counterplay.

Champions like that tend to feel snowballey and aren't fun to play against.

We do need to deal with these situations, and intend to gradually do so.

I agree that the existence of a lane counter is not 'enough'. We want all likely match-ups to be interesting, and much prefer 'soft' counters to hard ones.
Kassadin's counterplay depends on how much burst damage he is allowed to have.

His kit allows him to force engages in almost any situation. That does not inherently mean he has no counterplay. It depends on what he can do with these engages.

He also has a lot of CC. His target is almost completely locked down when he first engages. So when he's able to burst, that means he can force a situation with no interaction. His target dies before his CC ends and the situation is over.

His original design was all about long engages where he'd stack riftwalks and cast his spells multiple times. When this design worked correctly, Kassadin had to expose himself to threats to be effective because in long engages there are downtimes in everything he does, and his offensive and defensive capabilities share the same cooldowns.

His strengths have been shifted too much towards burst damage which ruins all of that. When he's not forced to play to his long-engage strengths, he's much easier to play, and much more difficult to interact with for opponents.


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Timid Gengar

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raichu Tall Tail View Post
so either you beat them really hard in lane, and I mean really hard, or they come back and destroy you mid game

kassadin and yasuo win lane by default if you don't completely zone them out
As my favorite game company said nothing wrong with something being powerful as long as it has counters . In league there are obviously going to be champs stronger than others,we have 100+ champs in league why do they have to be nerfed why can't you adapt and come out your comfort zone to beat them


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
7 of 12 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by MoonsBane View Post
Most times when we bring up the data from other sites a red shoots us down and says something to the effect of "It's far from accurate". Is there any reason you can't publish this data? Something akin to LoLKing or insert site of your choosing. Hell, even excel spreadsheets hosted on google would do. It's hard to have a discussion about game design when the people who are interested in are stuck quoting anecdotal/inaccurate evidence.

Now, i'm not saying you're not creditable; far from it. Been with you guys for four years. It just gets old being told "We haz Dataz" and severely limits any productive discussion. Sure, you're telling us about X data but you may not see how B C E and Q are all inter related and affecting X data in a completely different way. *Shrug* Just saying; having first hand data is much more helpful than having (literally) 3rd party data.
Well, I gave two data points.

1) Yasuo win rate is not absurdly high. He could still be imba, but win rates suggest that if he IS imba, it's not severely so. There could also be all sorts of other subjective problems with him in that win rate (higher rates vs certain champions, snowballiness, etc. I can say his performance is NOT super spikey at any particular elo presently). Anyway, that data point is something you can productively work with to form better theories (By isolating other theories).

2) Game time did not dramatically increase due to the anti-snowball changes. That's just a rebuttal. Can believe me or not ;p Prior poster said they increased a lot.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timid Gengar View Post
As my favorite game company said nothing wrong with something being powerful as long as it has counters . In league there are obviously going to be champs stronger than others,we have 100+ champs in league why do they have to be nerfed why can't you adapt and come out your comfort zone to beat them
Well, as your 'favorite game company' said, having the situation be 'counter this champ or lose' is a terrible idea; see, for example, the Riven nerfs. You could counter her fairly easily, but if you didn't, you were going to have a rough time of it.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
8 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaeta View Post
Zileas, how do you feel about the current state of Yasuo
Honestly? too soon to know yet, and likely to take time to fully know -- because he's a fairly complex champion that will take the community time to fully master.

My other feeling is that if he is actually OP, and can be demonstrated to be so in a clear way, the core gameplay team will take care of it pretty quickly (and correctly).


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khristophoros View Post
Kassadin's counterplay depends on how much burst damage he is allowed to have.

His kit allows him to force engages in almost any situation. That does not inherently mean he has no counterplay. It depends on what he can do with these engages.

He also has a lot of CC. His target is almost completely locked down when he first engages. So when he's able to burst, that means he can force a situation with no interaction. His target dies before his CC ends and the situation is over.

His original design was all about long engages where he'd stack riftwalks and cast his spells multiple times. When this design worked correctly, Kassadin had to expose himself to threats to be effective because in long engages there are downtimes in everything he does, and his offensive and defensive capabilities share the same cooldowns.

His strengths have been shifted too much towards burst damage which ruins all of that. When he's not forced to play to his long-engage strengths, he's much easier to play, and much more difficult to interact with for opponents.
Couldn't of said it better myself. Since I've hopefully caught you Khristophoros I request your feedback on something. I always value your input whenever I can get it and this post of yours is a prime example of why.


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OhSueYah

Junior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Or I could just think that maybe your stats are wrong and you're saying wrong stats truthfully. Much like my brother believes Microsoft is doing <insert XYZ conspiracy theory here> because he read it on 4chan. He believes it fully, but it's not true. So he's not LYING.

You're an awful pessimist Zileas, thinking I immediately think you're lying to me to win late night forum discussions. In fact, I was more inclined to believe your stats than to not believe them, I just have difficulty believing things somebody said on the internet and we should totally just believe them.

It could be many things:

Snowballing at bronze could have substantially decreased while snowballing at challenger (me, I'm challenger) hasn't changed at all. Net result? 15% decrease in snowballing. Decrease effecting me? None at all.

Faulty association: Something changed OTHER than the anti-snowballing mechanics to cause games to snowball less. For example, what if the assassin meta nerfs and tank buffs made it easier for teams to come back when they weren't getting 1 shot all the time?

Oops you looked at the wrong numbers: Oops, my bad.

Just bad data correlations: You drew a correlation and there simply wasn't one. For example look at: Psychology.
No, it comes down to a matter of your trust of him. Everything you mentioned in this post is an attack on his credibility.

Snowballing in bronze may have changed while snowballing in challenger hasn't? Do you truly think that the Vice President of Game Design and his team didn't think about this possibility? If you do think this, then perhaps you ought to apply to be his replacement because obviously you'd do a better job than him. If you don't think this, then you believe he is deliberately pulling the wool over our eyes - an attack on his credibility.

Faulty association? Obviously nobody - Riot or player - can make correct associations in every situation. But even I have to agree that there was a big change when preseason 4 came out, and I doubt you would say otherwise. This is a team of professionals, and they probably understand associations better than most of us. So if you think they made a faulty association, then perhaps you can contribute to the Riot team with some new associations. But if you think that they have made more correct associations, then you believe he is pulling the wool over our eyes - an attack on his credibility.

Oops, you looked at the wrong numbers? Okay, you're not attacking his credibility, but you're certainly playing him to be an idiot, which I highly doubt got him to the position of VP of Game Design.

Just bad data correlations? Ah, I didn't realize that you would have come up with better data correlations by looking at the data yourself. This guy is a professional. No, he and his team aren't perfect. But do you honestly think they have a ***** for making our lives miserable?

And before you pull some "you're just silver" bull****, a logical debate has nothing to do with one's ability to micro.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
9 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazzadan View Post
And Zileas in my post the first blood comment was only supposed to be a minor point, the main point was that these 2 champions have WAY too high of a banrate for an actual legitimate reason unlike the champions that are just banned for the sake of banning like Nasus or Elise. Those champions are beatable. Kassadin and Yasuo are too hard to deal with, whether we are talking bronze, gold or the pro scene.
Banrate is an indicator that people don't like dealing with him in their game -- either their allies playing him (potentially incorrectly) or enemies picking him (and him being either OP, annoying, frustratingly snowballey, or whatever). We certainly do pay attention to this, but take a lot less credence in banrates than actual game phenomena. When we see a high ban rate, we try to understand the driving factor in players' decision to do this, and whether or not that factor corresponds to a game balance or game health issue we should resolve.