I love how people think Kassadin and Yasuo are not OP because they have lane counters

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TapWaterRulez

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Comebacks are mistakes and not player skill? Isn't every single freaking change in momentum in a game due to mistakes? As good a move as someone might make, you can always, ALWAYS label it as a mistake by the opposing player(s).

And people are still disregarding team comps and matchups at every turn.

If you showed a person the teams laid out and they were the last one to pick, they could be anyone, and they had equal skill with all champs, I bet you an insignificant fraction would be able to know quickly who the actual best choices would be.

Kass is a problem ONLY because his counterplay is far more difficult than other champs. He needs to be fixed, but people need to have several play styles ready for counterplay regardless.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I mean, it's a question of my credibility. You can either take the position that you believe I'm being honest, or take the position that I'd explicitly lie to win a late-night forum argument that will have very little effect on the success of LoL but could really damage my personal reputation.

I guess you could try to cross-verify the data elsewhere since a lot of game records are taken by third-party sites.
I will level with you Zileas. Individual champion winrates are meaningles. Why? Because its a team game with 5 champions per team. The other 4 players should always have a bigger impact on the overall game regardless of how overpowered and problematic a champion is. If a team is going to lose because they are inferior to the enemy team skill wise one of them playing an OP champion does not make up for the teams overall impact. Sure it will help, and in some cases a champion that is really problematic can drag a game on and solo the entire thing by themself (See Tyrn). However in the end its a team game and an OP champion can only be on one of the two teams, he has a 50% chance to be on either one is picked - He will have a close to 50% winrate as a result.


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Awakezzz

Senior Member

02-07-2014

I've resigned to the fact that Riot knows Yasuo is too strong right now, but is waiting to nerf him until his sales start to fall off.

Sales were obviously big at first, but now that everyone knows how strong he is you can bet everyone who didn't buy him at release is dumping all the ip/rp they have to scoop him up and freelo him before the nerfs do finally come.

Let's face it, Riot cares about a lot of things. But money will always be the most important factor to any business.

Stating that Yasuo has a above 50% winrate does not by any means mean he is not overpowered. Anyone remember Zed at worlds? His win rate in solo q was sub 50%, in fact on the low side. Yet the champion was absurdly strong and everyone knew it. And he was subsequently nerfed.

Just because a champion loses a game doesn't mean that champ isn't strong. I had a Kassadin on the other team earlier today who went 17/2/12ish and still lost because his team mates made horrible decisions and threw the game for him. But that doesn't invalidate the isanely strong game that Kassadin just had. The same goes for yasuo.


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MoonsBane

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Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I mean, it's a question of my credibility. You can either take the position that you believe I'm being honest, or take the position that I'd explicitly lie to win a late-night forum argument that will have very little effect on the success of LoL but could really damage my personal reputation.

I guess you could try to cross-verify the data elsewhere since a lot of game records are taken by third-party sites.
Most times when we bring up the data from other sites a red shoots us down and says something to the effect of "It's far from accurate". Is there any reason you can't publish this data? Something akin to LoLKing or insert site of your choosing. Hell, even excel spreadsheets hosted on google would do. It's hard to have a discussion about game design when the people who are interested in are stuck quoting anecdotal/inaccurate evidence.

Now, i'm not saying you're not creditable; far from it. Been with you guys for four years. It just gets old being told "We haz Dataz" and severely limits any productive discussion. Sure, you're telling us about X data but you may not see how B C E and Q are all inter related and affecting X data in a completely different way. *Shrug* Just saying; having first hand data is much more helpful than having (literally) 3rd party data.


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ForumPostingAcco

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Past Then Future View Post
I'll believe Riot's numbers and statistics over 3rd party sites.
I would, but.... they can't even fix lag or get "loss prevented" handed out properly


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TapWaterRulez

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
I will level with you Zileas. Individual champion winrates are meaningles. Why? Because its a team game with 5 champions per team. The other 4 players should always have a bigger impact on the overall game regardless of how overpowered and problematic a champion is. If a team is going to lose because they are inferior to the enemy team skill wise one of them playing an OP champion does not make up for the teams overall impact. Sure it will help, and in some cases a champion that is really problematic can drag a game on and solo the entire thing by themself (See Tyrn). However in the end its a team game and an OP champion can only be on one of the two teams, he has a 50% chance to be on either one is picked - He will have a close to 50% winrate as a result.
That may have been the absolute WORST thing you could say in trying to argue that Kass and Yasuo need changes.


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Lomo Then Future

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForumPostingAcco View Post
I would, but.... they can't even fix lag or get "loss prevented" handed out properly
That's something completely different though. :P
Not that I'm a slave of Riot or anything, but when it comes to balancing and champions, I personally feel like they make the right calls. (Although not sure about the support roles though)


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Impetual

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
I will level with you Zileas. Individual champion winrates are meaningles.
How so? If a champion is overpowered, they will tend to win more games than they lose. Therefore, their winrate will be significantly higher than 50%. What is wrong with that logic?


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TapWaterRulez View Post
That may have been the absolute WORST thing you could say in trying to argue that Kass and Yasuo need changes.
It is not. My point is that them having close to 50% winrate doesn't mean there isn't a problem because you can't balance a champion in the void. The only time an OP champion will have an OP winrate is if what makes it OP is its ability to carry a game by itself after a certain amount of time or if picking the champion is so powerful it is an auto win.

A champion can be OP, it can be better than every other champion. That doesn't mean it is OP enough to solo 5 other champions on its own. Unless a champion can do that its winrate will always be close to 50%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impetual View Post
How so? If a champion is overpowered, they will tend to win more games than they lose. Therefore, their winrate will be significantly higher than 50%. What is wrong with that logic?
That is true but like mentioned above there is a difference between a champion being OP and how OP a champion is. The more OP a champion the more likely it is to have a higher winrate but there are other factors that effect a champions winrate that must be considered.


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TapWaterRulez

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
It is not. My point is that them having close to 50% winrate doesn't mean there isn't a problem because you can't balance a champion in the void. The only time an OP champion will have an OP winrate is if what makes it OP is its ability to carry a game by itself after a certain amount of time or if picking the champion is so powerful it is an auto win.

A champion can be OP, it can be better than every other champion. That doesn't mean it is OP enough to solo 5 other champions on its own. Unless a champion can do that its winrate will always be close to 50%.

If a champion's likelihood to win or lose is entirely dependent on if it got on the higher skilled team, that is the exact definition of it being fair and not needing changes.

How can you possibly cry that a champion is OP if you beat it every time you're on the more skilled team?