I love how people think Kassadin and Yasuo are not OP because they have lane counters

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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
In the case of Kassadin, being OP or not is not what really drives his frustration level, it's more than in a lot of situations, he will just execute his thing, and either succeed or fail entirely on his execution and stats -- not based on enemy reaction. In other words -- no potential for rich counterplay.

Champions like that tend to feel snowballey and aren't fun to play against.

We do need to deal with these situations, and intend to gradually do so.

I agree that the existence of a lane counter is not 'enough'. We want all likely match-ups to be interesting, and much prefer 'soft' counters to hard ones.
No Offence, but I have been watching you guys take 1 step forward two steps back for years. Many problems within this game you just flat out ignore because you can't come up with a solution to them and in some cases your solution to a problem is to just kill it off in the hopes it never appears again. Pre-Stealth rework Eve is a prime example of this, you created a toxic champion that lasted 2 years. The sad thing is that took 2 years and that is just one of the many examples of toxicity you create be it intentional or not. One step forward two steps back which is why every season is worse than the last.


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Morior Invictis

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Pretty much the same as my data, and that kind of number is in the range of normal champion variance week-to-week, or according to meta trends, or even rate of learning in enemy responses. Keep in mind that newly released champions are VERY carefully and continually watched by the design team, and will be adjusted if needed. +/- a few % of 50 is very common this soon after a launch, ESPECIALLY when we do something fairly experimental (which Yasuo is).

Champions like Yasuo are a little tough for us because it's not possible to balance them 100% internally -- the skill mastery and iteration the community puts them through live is just so much more complete than what is possible on PBE or internally.
So you're telling me its totally fine that Yasuo is 99.53% pick/ban in all levels of ranked, because he only wins 52% of his games?

Oh boy.


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FergusMacBolg

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Will we ever get to see these metrics or are they company seeeeeeecrets?


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hashinshin

Senior Member

02-08-2014

As compared to just about any other game I've played: MOBAs are far and away the most snowbally games, ever.

Of games I've played at a super high tier (not just high tier, I'm talking 0.01% here)

Natural Selection: Killing gave a small amount of resources, and building killing destroyed resources. However the amount gained was nothing to worry about unless it was stacked on to one character and a Fade came out a minute early. Even then we're talking one fade that can just as easily die. When the game ended though it ended, there wasn't a 10 minute painful dying process, there was 2 fades killing people as they respawned until they killed the respawners:

WoW arenas: Once one man of the 3v3 team got dropped it went one of two ways: A quick mop up typically with the 2 remaining members AFKing, or a slowww mop up involving 2 of the members healing each other for a few minutes while I got annoyed. Extremely rarely did it ever turn around, and if it did it was because a member of the 3 team lost a member within 10 seconds of them getting a kill. (I realize I didn't make this quite clear: In WoW you would fight for 5-10 minutes or even longer but once the game was over it was just over. Over all that time it could go either way, but once one side won they typically just won.)

Company of Heroes: A bit skewed since the Germans tended to just stomp out the game if they got the lead (being the late game team) but never really OVER. Additionally with heavy population restricted once on low points (as in you simply couldn't field a team anymore) you'd just get 3 capped and mopped up real quick once **** hit the fan. Unless it was a total wipe out though CoH is one of the best games for coming back in.

MOBAs: Get one kill you now gain an item + level advantage. Phreak stated levels gave 600 stats in gold (his words not mine) but I'll be fair and bring that to 500 gold in useful stats. 500g + 300 for the kill + an easy 200 gold gained while your opponent was dead (that's ~1.5 waves). It's not uncommon to come back in to lane and see your opponent has a giant's belt to your boots after a successful first blood. It's why those Korean games are just so simply one sided very often, come backs are mistakes and not player skill.

So I would say YES MOBAs snowball far harder than any other game I've played. I'm talking lightyears ahead in snowballing. We're talking other games are using a Greek phalanx and you're coming at them with an M1 Abrams level snowballing.


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UroniJKL

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Oh wow, you heard it here. Riot thinks Yasuo is fine. I was afraid of spending IP on him because I assumed he'd be nerfed since everyone in high Elo across all servers thinks he's OP, but I guess it's time to get on the Yasuo Freelo train.


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Furi Kuri

Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I think you are jumping to the wrong conclusion by basically saying, MOBAs are snowballey, therefore lack gameplay... right? If we follow that chain of logic, we should just make LoL end after first blood and that would be the best game?
Why does Riot always say stupid BS to try to prove a point?

Like what kind of red herring is that?


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Fiora Mid GG Alt

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Pretty much the same as my data, and that kind of number is in the range of normal champion variance week-to-week, or according to meta trends, or even rate of learning in enemy responses. Keep in mind that newly released champions are VERY carefully and continually watched by the design team, and will be adjusted if needed. +/- a few % of 50 is very common this soon after a launch, ESPECIALLY when we do something fairly experimental (which Yasuo is).

Champions like Yasuo are a little tough for us because it's not possible to balance them 100% internally -- the skill mastery and iteration the community puts them through live is just so much more complete than what is possible on PBE or internally.
This is the first post I have ever downvoted of yours Zileas and thats because I'm calling shenanigans. Yasuo has not been hotfixed despite how broken he is. You don't even have to figure out what exactly is making his kit so broken and fix/nerf it appropriately. Just nerf some of his stats and when you refine him add some buffs for the previous nerf (if necessary).

But do something. Complete inaction is just mind boggling for us because he is just destroying solo Q. Which leaves many people to this skewed belief that Riot just releases OP champs for sale and then nerfs after.


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Ask Tyrant Swain

Member

02-08-2014

The thing with Kassadin isn't that he snowballs really hard (though, he does), it's that he doesn't need to snowball at all.
All you need to do in lane is be as passive as possible and evade any chance of a fight.
Then when you reach 6 you either harass the enemy to death or you gank.
Or you continue being passive until teamfights start. Then you get the gold from kills/assists and that's your ''snowball''.


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ForumPostingAcco

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post

We do need to deal with these situations, and intend to gradually do so.
"Gradually"

Yet each patch is a cluster**** full of 2 months worth of changes.


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Nazzadan

Senior Member

02-08-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I think you are jumping to the wrong conclusion by basically saying, MOBAs are snowballey, therefore lack gameplay... right? If we follow that chain of logic, we should just make LoL end after first blood and that would be the best game? That's obviously wrong in general, though I will concede that Snowdown was pretty fun (though, not fun for nearly as long as Summoner's Rift).
To be fair there is decent data to show that the team that gets first blood usually, statistically wins the game. And Yasuo/Kassadin's winrate being slightly over 50% is overshadowed moreso by their incredible banrate. In my experience at least, they are not banned because they are an annoyance like Bronzodia(Amumu, Malphite, Blitz), they are banned because whoever you send mid is going to lose if they go unbanned unless they are exceptional at the champ they selected, or if the Yasuo/Kass is brain dead and locked them in because they aren't banned