I love how people think Kassadin and Yasuo are not OP because they have lane counters

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UroniJKL

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impetual View Post
His winrate is 51.59% - pretty close to even.

He's strong, but a little short of OP. The majority of the player base just has a skewed perception of him since he was released recently and most players are not used to dealing with him.
You're not Zileas. I asked him!


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hashinshin

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Priorities:

Rengar is ruining mid/low level games, NERF HIM AGAIN AND AGAIN!

Kassadin has been ruining high/tournament level games for half a year, DO NOTHING AND TALK ABOUT PRIORITIES.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
In the case of Kassadin, being OP or not is not what really drives his frustration level, it's more than in a lot of situations, he will just execute his thing, and either succeed or fail entirely on his execution and stats -- not based on enemy reaction. In other words -- no potential for rich counterplay.

Champions like that tend to feel snowballey and aren't fun to play against.

We do need to deal with these situations, and intend to gradually do so.

I agree that the existence of a lane counter is not 'enough'. We want all likely match-ups to be interesting, and much prefer 'soft' counters to hard ones.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, because what you said is entirely true. I think part of my confusion is why you guys buffed the silence duration on Q... It removed more counterplay to his kit when counterplay was already pretty barren to begin with :/

I also think what makes Kass so OP is his high mobility. Right now he's just too mobile with not enough trade off. He's super mobile (so if he's shut down on lane, he can just roam), has insane burst, snowballs hard, is fairly tanky, has decent utility in his silence and slow, and he is almost impossible to gank at all because he can just play passive early and then riftwalk away from everything later on. He also doesn't have any sustain issues. He gets passive mana regen from neither blade.

Right now I think he's "OP" because he lacks counterplay, and his kit is way too overwhelming.


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Furi Kuri

Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I actually don't know the specifics on that as I don't manage the core gameplay team day-to-day.
So what does Riot do with all their money? Count it? Or do the Chinese get most the money?


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hashinshin

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Actually no I'll cut Riot a break on this one: If we pinpoint the date of Kassadin starting to ruin tournament/high ELO ranked games as the S3 finals as October of 2013 then Kassadin has been ruining NA and Korean ranked for 5 months, not 6. BUT he has been ruining EU ranked for like... ever now.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Oh I'm also just going to throw this wild idea out there:

The amount of counter-snowballing in LoL actually serves to make the game incredibly painful. Because snowballing in a MOBA can't really be stopped but can instead be slowed (and slowed and slowed and slowed...) all counter-snowballing really does is make it far more painful to lose while giving an insignificant chance to actually stop a snowball.

I argue that one of the reasons DotA2 gets by without a surrender button while LoL needs one is DotA has very little/no anti-snowballing and instead allows games to end organically and healthily, while LoL forces you to keep in it kicking and screaming torturing you the entire time. DotA2 you get fed and you just kick the door in and murder everybody.

I think the fact that S4 increased anti-snowballing and in turn increased average game length proves my point.

Basically I'm saying I'm all for a capitalist free market system and Riot's communist pigdog ways are bad.


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Reivur

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Could you just... You know, Eve him? Kassadin I mean?

I'm not talking the cynical **** people are spouting about her now. I mean the "We are breaking her until the changes are ready because she is over the top aggravating and supporting her player base does not have greater value than flipping the game off the table". You know, the two year exile. Except preferably less than two years since you guys are faster at reworks now.

Blowing a ban on him every game just because of his inevitability is crappy. You have more success winning against him from his team illogically hating one another and giving up before they remember that just stalling the game will put him into shape.


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CallMeBlitzkrieg

Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I actually don't know the specifics on that as I don't manage the core gameplay team day-to-day, but we would want to do something to him at some point to keep him awesome to play, but with better counterplay.

It's a question of priorities, and we spent a lot of energy on the 2014 season changes which were intended to, among other things, resolve some general snowballing and counterplay problems broadly (and thus make the game more fun broadly). We'd rather focus effort on resolving broad sets of these problems due to the bang for the buck, but we will get to outlier champions eventually as well, and always have some effort going on towards them (as evidenced by the ongoing remakes and reworks).

In other news, we would love to pick up a few more experienced game designers who really, really know LoL and find these types of problems fascinating. Feel free to apply if you are reading this and match that profile...
While not Kassadin or Yasuo... are you guys going to nerf defensive masteries at some point? The defensive tree is just head and shoulders above everything else. Nerfing mundo/shyv is kind of like nerfing corki after you guys made triforce OP, unnecessary and not the real problem.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-07-2014
3 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impetual View Post
His winrate is 51.59% - pretty close to even.

He's strong, but a little short of OP. The majority of the player base just has a skewed perception of him since he was released recently and most players are not used to dealing with him.
Pretty much the same as my data, and that kind of number is in the range of normal champion variance week-to-week, or according to meta trends, or even rate of learning in enemy responses. Keep in mind that newly released champions are VERY carefully and continually watched by the design team, and will be adjusted if needed. +/- a few % of 50 is very common this soon after a launch, ESPECIALLY when we do something fairly experimental (which Yasuo is).

Champions like Yasuo are a little tough for us because it's not possible to balance them 100% internally -- the skill mastery and iteration the community puts them through live is just so much more complete than what is possible on PBE or internally.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-07-2014
4 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Oh I'm also just going to throw this wild idea out there:

The amount of counter-snowballing in LoL actually serves to make the game incredibly painful. Because snowballing in a MOBA can't really be stopped but can instead be slowed (and slowed and slowed and slowed...) all counter-snowballing really does is make it far more painful to lose while giving an insignificant chance to actually stop a snowball.
I think you are jumping to the wrong conclusion by basically saying, MOBAs are snowballey, therefore lack gameplay... right? If we follow that chain of logic, we should just make LoL end after first blood and that would be the best game? That's obviously wrong in general, though I will concede that Snowdown was pretty fun (though, not fun for nearly as long as Summoner's Rift).

Our view on this is that we want games to end. We also want games to be interesting. There's a sweet spot where decisions are maximized, and comeback is possible via strong plays, and the most number of satisfying decisions occurs. If you make there be too much comeback potential, the game can feel like getting ahead isn't an advantage. On the other hand, if you offer a ton of reactive moves, but the game truly does snowball, you just create a bunch of false gameplay where you know you are losing anyway.


Quote:
I think the fact that S4 increased anti-snowballing and in turn increased average game length proves my point.
It did... I checked the data about a month ago and it was like an average of something like 30 seconds, and in exchange, we got something like 15 or 20% fewer stomps and also a large number of games moving from the 'one-sided' category to the 'interesting' category (We have some internal analytics differentiating that we use to track our own progress on this stuff)

We got a secondary boost later from some matchmaking improvements as well soon after the patch (in terms of more quality games).


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