Rengar Rework Strikes Back

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Fishing Boat

Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
That may be a feasible solution, but I think there is a lot of value to not overloading Rengar with too many mechanics (he already has a lot as is).
I truly hope that I speak for all of us that you don't have to worry about that with the empowered bola.
The bola as it is feels rather simple already, as just a root, so the extra jump would be a really cool modification that would give him some better ganking potential with E, since by the time he has enough fury for an empowered ability in lane, the enemy could be close to safety, so this could give him that extra edge to finish out the kill by tying them up and getting close when they feel like they've made it to safety.
tl;dr I LOVE this idea please don't just dismiss it like this
Also scruffy I love whoever put in this trinket idea because it's beautiful


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CJMasta

Member

02-07-2014

Ferocity is lost if you don't use it in 10 seconds...
Ferocity doesn't generate until ult is over...
Lose MS buff on Ult...

Rito has finally ruined my favorite champ. GG

Rest in peace my sweet kitty.


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RakshirX

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
That may be a feasible solution, but I think there is a lot of value to not overloading Rengar with too many mechanics (he already has a lot as is).
At present, Lee has the same option to leap at the target he hits, or not. He can also hit mobs and use them as an escape, and he can gain sight of targets through bushes and use that as an escape route too. Rengar, at present, has no escape. To be fair to him, like other assassins, one should be written in.


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Necromancer

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Senior Member

02-07-2014

"Passive
-Ferocity stacks will reset to 0 if they are not used or gained for 10 seconds"

Please stop with this, to many skills reset when they shouldn't.

Don't ruin his early game ganks by doing this.


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lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Ok Rengars, big awesome update:

So far the direction of starting a fight with 0 ferocity but building up reliably to a finisher is working out, but with the current design we haven't really committed to it 100% and allowed Rengar to have a really reliable and contained way to get to full stacks. So here's the new hotness that we are trying out.
(anything not mentioned is the same as the previous changes)

-Rengar's max ferocity is lowered to 4 from 5
-Q cooldown lowered dramatically to 4/3.75/3.5/3.25/3s
-Q attack speed buff lowered to 15/20/25/30/35%
-Ferocity Q grants 2 ferocity after use instead of 3
-Also trinket cooldown is lowered so that he can have 2 traps in the world at a time

The real linchpin of this new rotation is Q. With Q on a 3 second cooldown he can come in to a fight with 0 ferocity Q->W->E->3s cooldown->Q and hit the new max stacks of 4 for a finisher.

These numbers aren't final but what we have the potential to do here is really understand and balance the buildup to finisher rotation. I'll let you know how this works out in testing (crosses fingers).

-Scruffy

I'm really glad you're recognising this issue and trying to address it. The one thing I hate about Rengar is having such a terrible synergy with building his Ferocity. With Q being the only skill on a relatively short cooldown on live he takes forever to get an Empowered strike up without preparing it beforehand.

Your idea here seems like a good step in the right direction. However I'm slightly concerned by his W skill. To me it seems like his W has little to no interesting play right now. Its quite simply a filler skill to build up Ferocity. You pop it when it comes off cooldown, it gives some passive tankiness and otherwise its just an extra Stack.

The W skill could probably be replaced by a passive that just gives a stack of Ferocity every x seconds while in combat.


I seriously think you should consider making his Ult into a normal skill with a low Cooldown and view the Empowered attacks as his Ultimate mechanic. This would give him that much needed extra skill to build Ferocity and frees up his choices so that he can make meaningful decisions with his skills rather than just be forced into a single rotation.

Either way, this definitely puts him in a much better spot from my point of view. Nice work


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
That may be a feasible solution, but I think there is a lot of value to not overloading Rengar with too many mechanics (he already has a lot as is).
Many people seem to be wanting changes that give Rengar everything--free gapcloser on the bola toss, free gapcloser on the roar, free passive gapcloser with a cooldown, more survivability and damage and utility and flexibility and map control and dueling power and teamfight power and etc., etc., etc.--but I think the best move would be to find a main focus for Rengar and focus everything, both strengths and weaknesses, towards that.

In my previous post I mentioned that pushing him away from the standard bruiser kit and more towards a preparation-based skirmisher/assassin (as if you're going to go through with the changes you proposed to how his Ferocity functions, you may as well give him Fury), but even if you're dead-set on turning him into a Q-spamming knifecat, move the entire kit in that direction. If you want him to start at 0 Ferocity and build it up over fights/don't want him to have any Ferocity out of combat, axe all of the contradictory mechanics that would make more sense for a short-term fighter (which, after all the changes you proposed, is mainly the roar and ultimate). I'd rather have a coherent kit that doesn't fit quite so well with the character, than a kit that kind of fits the character but exists as a Frankenstein's monster of wishy-washy design direction.

Some of the changes you're proposing sound like they'd fit more in-line with the preparation-based Rengar (namely the trinket trap), and all things considered (ie. lore, theming, current kit mechanics, resource, etc.), I wholeheartedly believe that such a direction would be the best one with Rengar--with changes made to prevent him from simply ulting and 100-0'ing some poor squishy (the changes linked earlier in this post eliminate his triple Q and the arbitrary magic damage on his roar), give him more defined strengths, and provide more accessible counterplay to his opponents.


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Messaiga

Senior Member

02-07-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
-Rengar's max ferocity is lowered to 4 from 5
-Q cooldown lowered dramatically to 4/3.75/3.5/3.25/3s
-Q attack speed buff lowered to 15/20/25/30/35%
-Ferocity Q grants 2 ferocity after use instead of 3
-Also trinket cooldown is lowered so that he can have 2 traps in the world at a time

The real linchpin of this new rotation is Q. With Q on a 3 second cooldown he can come in to a fight with 0 ferocity Q->W->E->3s cooldown->Q and hit the new max stacks of 4 for a finisher.
-Scruffy
How may I start?

-Rengar's max ferocity is lowered to 4 from 5 - Sounds great to me.

-Q cooldown lowered dramatically to 4/3.75/3.5/3.25/3s - Man that's short, especially for all the damage it provides, but then again we won't have instant double Q's at the beginning of a fight and his E or W don't do much damage, so it sounds good.

-Q attack speed buff lowered to 15/20/25/30/35% - This is fair when you consider that he will have more sustained damage with his Q on a short cooldown. This is also good to reduce Rengar's splitpushing potential, since he will have less overall tower shred.

-Ferocity Q grants 2 ferocity after use instead of 3 - Seems fitting since his overall ferocity was reduced, just a thought however, what if any of his empowered abilities gave him 2 ferocity after use?

-Also trinket cooldown is lowered so that he can have 2 traps in the world at a time - Sounds like playing Rengar jungle will be fun, but unfortunately he would be unable to reveal wards when he ganks unless there were several versions of his BTN Trinket, a warding BTN, Scrying Orb BTN, Sweeping Lens BTN, and BTN Traps. Maybe he would be able to reveal nearby invisible units (anything that is stealthed or invisible) with his W, but not disable them like the Sweeping Lens?


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3mptylord

Senior Member

02-07-2014

I feel like I should mention that removing the slow on Bola Strike would remove the identity of the skill (it's a bola!).

Also, I don't think Rengar should have too many ways to trigger Unseen Predator out of a brush. Isn't that suppose to be Rengar's major strength/weakness (and core identity as a predator-in-the-jungle)? Simply allowing his traps to be triggered by monsters gives him an escape mechanism - you don't need to make his E an escape mechanism too. (I hope the arm time on his trap is fairly quick).

One thing I would request is that his Bola grant sight - for similar reasons to Elise. Landing a snare blind and not having a visible target to lung on will feel pretty bad. At least before it was targeted - so you had to already be able to see the target.

P.S. Please make his trap look like a Bushwhack. Steal Nidalee's if you must. It would just suit him perfectly.


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Fishywtf

Member

02-07-2014

RiotScruffy! Wait wait wait. You said that all ferocity abilities are based on the level like W at the moment. Doesn't that mean Rengar's ferocity damage will be capped off even if building damage?


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-07-2014
22 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishywtf View Post
RiotScruffy! Wait wait wait. You said that all ferocity abilities are based on the level like W at the moment. Doesn't that mean Rengar's ferocity damage will be capped off even if building damage?
Flat bonus numbers will scale with level like 100 damage + 1.0 AD. The AD/AP ratios will still be there for his item scaling.