Rengar Rework Strikes Back

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Mayday66

Junior Member

02-05-2014

I really like the changes to rengar but i would also really like to put a small cooldown on his passive leap. just like maybe 10 or 15 seconds. His jooking ability is way too strong imo and needs a slight reduction.


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-05-2014
18 of 48 Riot Posts

Hello Rengars. Two things to talk about today.

1. I'm trying out a unique vision active for the bonetooth trinket: Rengar places a trap that triggers when an enemy walks within its radius (~200 unit radius for testing). The unit is revealed with Rengar's heat vision for 10 seconds. His first attack against the revealed target will cause him to leap.

2. Lets talk about the ferocity change because I'm seeing a lot of comments about it. The goal here is that we do want Rengar to start fights and ganks at 0 Ferocity, but we have given him a lot of changes to compensate for this change. His E now has a stronger slow that does not decay over time (this is big). Also his ferocity bonuses on all 3 basic skills are buffed so that when he does reach full ferocity, he is rewarded with a big finisher.

I really appreciate the feedback you all are giving in this thread, Rengar is really going to be sick when we're through with him.
-Scruffy


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Vacus

Senior Member

02-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hello Rengars. Two things to talk about today.

1. I'm trying out a unique vision active for the bonetooth trinket: Rengar places a trap that triggers when an enemy walks within its radius (~200 unit radius for testing). The unit is revealed with Rengar's heat vision for 10 seconds. His first attack against the revealed target will cause him to leap.
Do allies get to see them too, or just Rengar?

If just Rengar, I feel it needs to be a lot stronger than that to be viable compared to a ward. If allies can see it too, I have no opinion; I'd need to see it in play to form an opinion.


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LichquisitorNik

Junior Member

02-05-2014

re 1: awesome idea! however I know that with Nidalee traps the long duration is really annoying as a jungler. So is the trap instead of a ward active (I'd reckon as such.) At least it doesn't shred mr/ar. However anything to proc the heat vision is great as it has an awesome visual effect when playing as Rengar. However; whilst working on the trinket version of the bone-tooth a unique active is effective however the diversity for balance of having the sweep/clairv/ward is limiting. As for if the bone-tooth would acts as the normal trinket and additionally has this special trap as an upgrade for trophies then would Rengar's effective ward limit be 4?

re 2: as for the ferocity changes; the lane vs jungle battle continues. The jungle Rengar will usually come out for the gank with 0 ferocity; whilst the lane Rengar will have a few ferocity constantly from laning; ergo a strong finisher enhanced ability will favor the lane Rengar. This could possibly lead to a series of jungle enhancements while nerfs to that which will make him strong in lane. This could be limiting to him forcing him into one role or another where he is strongest. Personally I am biased towards a jungle Rengar. In question between lane and jungle Rengar, the creative design did promote a hunter who stalks and pops out for the gank, the predator. Verily the fantasy of playing Rengar is tied heavily with his ultimate and passive. q/w/e are dmg proc, defensive proc, and utility proc, the effective flavor of the champion, imo, comes from his passive, r, and bonetooth. Thus-the flavor promotes jungle however health of diversity promotes a balance of options. Herewithin lies the point, to weaken the assassin the ferocity must be changed towards a prolonged fighter, yet the hunter is entangled in the reliability offered by lane.

In brief, what is the ideal feeling for him, and how do these mechanics help? The former promotes the hunter who stalks, whilst the second enhances the meta-health.


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sharpshooter1200

Senior Member

02-05-2014

i love you scruffy <33333333333


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

02-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hello Rengars. Two things to talk about today.


-Scruffy

1) Interesting idea. But I need to see screenshots of it to get a good picture in my mind.


2) I don't mind his gauge decaying overtime as long as it power-up versions are really that much more powerful.


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Mazinger

Senior Member

02-05-2014

I'm not sure how all the ferocity is going to work but, Why not give his passive something in the lines of "Rengar's first ability after being out of combat for 25 seconds Generates X bonus Ferocity" Since it decays n all.


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LoneWarrior96

Senior Member

02-05-2014

I definitely like the trap idea as it synergizes very well with Rengars theme as a awesome hunter


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PenguinPaladin

Senior Member

02-05-2014

Even if the trap idea doesn't work well in game, I love the direction you're going in. It would bother me to have a unique Rengar trinket that isn't uniquely Rengar, and you've definitely found something that fits with his kit mechanically and thematically.

I don't have a ton of detailed critique for it, but keep up the good work.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-05-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hello Rengars. Two things to talk about today.

1. I'm trying out a unique vision active for the bonetooth trinket: Rengar places a trap that triggers when an enemy walks within its radius (~200 unit radius for testing). The unit is revealed with Rengar's heat vision for 10 seconds. His first attack against the revealed target will cause him to leap.

2. Lets talk about the ferocity change because I'm seeing a lot of comments about it. The goal here is that we do want Rengar to start fights and ganks at 0 Ferocity, but we have given him a lot of changes to compensate for this change. His E now has a stronger slow that does not decay over time (this is big). Also his ferocity bonuses on all 3 basic skills are buffed so that when he does reach full ferocity, he is rewarded with a big finisher.

I really appreciate the feedback you all are giving in this thread, Rengar is really going to be sick when we're through with him.
-Scruffy
I never really understood the whole "We want Rengar to focus more on longer-lasting fights/start at 0 Fury and work his way to full multiple times in a fight/shift him more towards being very similar to most of the bruisers in the game/etc." as that seems to contradict his hunter/predator nature.

It would seem a more natural fit for him to focus on building Ferocity before initiating fights (more or less "sharpening his knife" and preparing for the hunt), and have the majority of his effectiveness lie in the first split-second of fights and taper off as the fight drags on (which even now could be done by making his steroids stronger at the start but decay over the duration). When considering how a character like Rengar would play, I'd think of something along the lines of this.

With the prescribed changes, Rengar becomes more of a skirmish-based assassin, who is noticeably stronger when able to prepare and start favorable fights against single targets; likewise, his weaknesses would then be lower power in longer duels or bunched-up teamfights, and counterplay would be available via initiating fights on Rengar when his pants are down (ie. when he's low on Ferocity and his Q isn't prepared), keeping strong bush vision, and drawing out fights with him beyond his window of opportunity.

I understand that a lot of the new direction comes from "We don't want Rengar to be able to leap from stealth and 100-to-0 somebody with little warning and no counterplay aside from burning Flash if you have it" which could translate, from a purely mechanical point-of-view, to "Let's spread out all of that damage over a longer period of time, giving enemies a larger window of time to react and escape"--which makes sense (again, from a mechanical point-of-view), but would be much more appropriate thematically on someone like Darius, who is intended to be all about drawing out fights but currently reaches his threshold too quickly for many players to react before being split in two.

I also understand that you good folks working on Rengar have been going in this direction for a while and seem pretty satisfied with it, so I wouldn't expect you to swing things in an entirely different direction, but I believe that Rengar's current problems can still be solved while being more thematically faithful to him as a champion (you don't see lions leaping at gazelles and then proceed to slap them in the face for ten seconds); hell, even the problem of him being able to instagib squishies could be solved through the skirmisher direction, with Savagery/Carving Strike not being possible to trigger three times in a row, and with its Ferocity bonus still giving enemies a good window of time to react (as the missing % health damage encourages Rengar to throw in a few autoattacks on higher-health enemies to maximize damage output, so double-tapping it is only effective on low-health enemies which assassins should be able to clean up anyway).

As a side note, I do like where you're going with the trinket active for BTN--it pushes him more in-line with his hunter/predator theming and encourages preparation (provided he can't just throw it down while chasing to mark an enemy at a moment's notice), and feels pretty natural for a guy like Rengar to do. It also creates room for BTN to focus less on pure statistical bonuses and more on things that are more gameplay-oriented and easier to notice/appreciate.