Rengar Rework Strikes Back

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

lm Krueger ml

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jollter View Post
For his Q i'd rather just take attack speed. I can't imagine how much of a top lane monster he'd be anyways if he had a bleeding affect. (Bola, jump out of bush, Q, run away loling as their health drops.) And i'm sure it will have almost no affect on most bruisers building armor at top. Also, if your going to insta-gib someone, how would bleeding even help? Their health usually drops so fast that bleeding would hardly be noticeable. At-least with attack speed you can speed up the process of swinging away at them.

Why would his W stealth him? He's supposed to roar and get some type of buff or heal, not hide and have no ferocity for his next ability.

I don't mind having the bola as a skill shot.

His ultimate seems like a weird version of rivens abilites put into one, just extremely nerfed. I like having the long stealth with increased movement speed, it gives him extreme back door potential and a nice escape or engage. Plus I don't think rengar's knife is big enough to actually do that. There's quite a-lot of flaws with this. It would turn rengar into a pure bruizer, and he'd be in no way an assassin at all, which is kind of what he was meant to be. :l
Ok, I tried reeeeally hard to put in a nice bold TL;DR just before the kit for people who didn't want to read the whole post. I'll have to go and underline it and make it clearer.

To be clear. The kit is based around an Udyr mechanic.
This means:
- there is no Ult
- there are 4 basic skills
- It also means that you can't use more than one skill in quick succession
- Using any one skill causes all skills to go on a 2second cooldown (no cdr).


This means that you cannot burst someone down instantly by firing off a heap of damage skills instantly. Yes this means the kit is designed around the idea of a Fighter Rengar not an Assassin Rengar. I appreciate if you would rather have an assassin kit, but unless you can come up with a healthy burst Rengar kit try to keep an open mind please.

The issue you state with his Q being too good for trading. You have to get into melee range to use the Q. You can't just Q someone and run away without opening yourself up to counter-harass. Its not possible. Even if you jump on the target, Q them and then W away, there is still a 2 second window between your skills for the enemy laner to attack you back. The only ranged skill the kit has is the Bola Strike which is a blockable skill shot.

Insta-gibbing someone will not happen with this kit, no. You are a sustained damage fighter. If you build up 5 Ferocity, then you will have the chance to execute someone. But you can't just jump on someone and melt them with an instantaneous combo.

His W2 stealths him because its designed to be his defensive cooldown. When he reaches 5 Ferocity he has options. He can execute a single target, throw down some AOE damage, stun someone or go defensive. The stealth + heal grants him re-engage potential through his passive and a decent heal if he's low. Its not designed to be an engage tool, its a disengage and re-engage tool. His normal W is a roar that gives him a buff. Why would you want exactly the same ability on his Empowered version?

The R ability is not an Ult. Its a standard skill like all the others on a 6sec cd like all the others. It gives an option of doing splash damage to adjacent targets instead of bleed damage on a single target. The Empowered version grants AOE damage.

His current Ult which you state you like, stealthing and move speed increases I've deliberately retained in the rest of his kit. You can still stealth juke someone and you can still boost your movement speed in a fight. However, the choices are now far more reactive and constant than just one single massive burst combo every 5 skills and then trying not to die for the rest of the fight.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-04-2014
15 of 48 Riot Posts

Don't want to leave you guys hanging for too long. Just coming to update and say that we are doing small iterations and testing Rengar daily.

-We're tuning lots of numbers to get his laning, ganking and late game power in a reasonable place.
-We have also made the trinket available in yellow, red, and blue with each being the corresponding vision active (ward, sweeper, clairvoyance)

We're moving at a good rate with him and I'm still checking this thread for all of your feedback.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AsukaEva02

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Give Stealth Champs a field of vision where they are visible like Evelyn and most problems will vanish. If all champs in league had a small field of True sight against other champions a lot of stealth issues with champs would be solved.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Blackout376

Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
As promised, I'm here with some updates about where the Rengar rework is at and I would also like to get your feedback on the direction and changes.

Overall we hope to accomplish these goals:
-Add counterplay to ranged harass in lane
-Add counterplay overall
-Make ferocity skill choices more compelling
-Improve Bonetooth Necklace in both satisfaction and uniqueness
-Lengthen the time Rengar can fight
-Many small improvements to make all abilities more satisfying and fun

So with those goals in mind, here is our current changelist (numbers aren't final so I'll post those later):

General
-Buffs to base health regen and health per level
-All ferocity effects will deal damage based on champ level instead of the level of the spell

Passive
-Ferocity stacks will reset to 0 if they are not used or gained for 10 seconds

Q
-Cooldown lowered at all ranks
-Ferocity Q now gives the same attack speed buff as base Q
-Ferocity Q now gives 3 ferocity after it is used
-Ferocity Q damage scales on champ level instead of spell level

W
-3 Seconds after the initial roar, Rengar roars again for PBAOE damage and builds another Ferocity
-Ferocity W scales on champion level instead of spell level

E
-E is now a skillshot
-E range increased from 575 to 1000
-Damage increased
-Slow increased
-Ferocity E deals damage based on champion level not spell level
-Ferocity E root duration increased

R
-Stealth duration increased from 7s to 10s
-Rengar no longer gains movement speed while stealthed
-After exiting stealth, Rengar now gains a significant movement speed buff for 5 seconds
-The Ferocity gain begins after Rengar exits stealth instead of when the stealth begins

Bonetooth Necklace
-Now is a trinket!
-Costs 0 gold!
-Has a new active that places a temporary ward
-No longer gives AD or AD per level
-3 Trophy Bonus: Movement speed out of combat and in brush
-6 Trophy Bonus: Additional leap range
-9 Trophy Bonus: Increased Thrill of the Hunt stealth duration
-14 Trophy Bonus: Gain movement speed while stealthed in Thrill of the Hunt


These changes are still WIP so this thread is all about getting your constructive feedback and having a dialogue to help us make Rengar a more fun champ for all players. I'll be coming back to the thread later today to discuss the feedback.

-Scruffy
While I like most of these changes. Don't you think that 10 sec is a little short for his passive? If a person were to jungle rengar it would make his passive essentially useless for ganking. You cant get from any of the camps to a lane and perform a gank in 10 sec. Time it out if you want but I still think Rengar should be able to effectively use his passive for ganking. a 20-25 sec time window seems a little more realistic.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The5lacker

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Don't want to leave you guys hanging for too long. Just coming to update and say that we are doing small iterations and testing Rengar daily.

-We're tuning lots of numbers to get his laning, ganking and late game power in a reasonable place.
-We have also made the trinket available in yellow, red, and blue with each being the corresponding vision active (ward, sweeper, clairvoyance)

We're moving at a good rate with him and I'm still checking this thread for all of your feedback.
What were your thoughts on Xelnath's suggestion? Having his Unique Trinket giving him 5 seconds of Vision in an area around him? I'd find that much more interesting than simply stapling his Bonetooth Necklace to the other Trinkets. I mean, what's the point otherwise?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Simba Pridelands

Senior Member

02-04-2014

can we please have normal q have its 6 seconds back before it expires and leave the empowered the same (2 seconds) its really annoying getting kited in lane because 2 seconds is way to short and im really excited about the rework


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-04-2014
16 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackout376 View Post
While I like most of these changes. Don't you think that 10 sec is a little short for his passive? If a person were to jungle rengar it would make his passive essentially useless for ganking. You cant get from any of the camps to a lane and perform a gank in 10 sec. Time it out if you want but I still think Rengar should be able to effectively use his passive for ganking. a 20-25 sec time window seems a little more realistic.

Ya, after some testing 10 seconds did feel a bit too punishing. Right now he has 12 seconds, and it's based around combat instead of Ferocity gain. With those changes, it's pretty reasonable to keep the Ferocity going as long as you keep yourself in combat.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Voluug13

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I can shed some light on this -

Previously, BTN was having issues for a few reasons:

1. Succeeding in lane or in ganks before purchasing BTN made you feel bad about 'wasting' some stacks
2. The actual purchase of BTN was quite poor in immediate stat-gain relative to other items

Even in the first draft of the rework (with it being built out of a Hunter's Machete), it still faced some issues -AND- had to carry the burden of being Stat-efficient, Low/Mid Cost so people would buy it, and the upgrades had to feel useful (not to mention the effective gold value of whatever passives it would have) and BTN's back is starting to get a little heavy.

Add on top of that the amount of sustain that jungle items are meant to have already to compete in the new jungle/season, and that's quite a lot that BTN has to do. So, we could try to make it balanced (and no one buys it, or they do and lose gold-efficiency), or we make it fit into the game as-is (and you buy it 100% of the time for cost-efficient stats, and sometimes get premium bonuses). It was kind of messy.

Players had always been asking for a way in the previous threads/discussions for a way for Rengar to have it at level 1, which was pretty cool - we just didn't have a really good way to do it at the time. Fast-Forward to now and we have Trinkets! A free item you get at level 1 with no cost and no stats associated with it. And so, the decision was made. And after a playtest i can tell you, it feels pretty awesome

(Bonus Round - to all those worried about alternate maps, it's entirely possible for us to include a 'BTN Trinket' but let it keep none of the yellow/red/blue functionality so Knifecat gets to see the world and bring the hunt with him. Think Poro-Snax!)
Love this change. Can't wait for KnifeKat rework that keeps his overall playstyle.

Sidenote: NOW DO THE SAME FOR VICKTOR'S AUGMENTS PLEASE. You have it kinda similary coded to the normal trinkets right?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Noctis Lunaris

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post

Bonetooth Necklace
-Has a new active that places a temporary ward
Riot, fix this pls. Bonetooth Necklance is supposed to make me a super cool hunter when I get dem stacks. Thematically, Red trinket works better.

-because it gives True Sight when upgraded. Rengar is so badass a hunter that he can spot you even if you're invisible. There is no hiding from the Ultimate Hunter. What kind of Ultimate Hunter loses their prey because they went invisible for a few seconds? Riot pls.

-disables traps. Master hunters set traps, not get caught by them. He knows all the tricks in the book. Using the ward drop means that the professional gets beaten by noob hunter traps. Riot pls.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

lightdragoon88

Senior Member

02-04-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Don't want to leave you guys hanging for too long. Just coming to update and say that we are doing small iterations and testing Rengar daily.

-We're tuning lots of numbers to get his laning, ganking and late game power in a reasonable place.
-We have also made the trinket available in yellow, red, and blue with each being the corresponding vision active (ward, sweeper, clairvoyance)

We're moving at a good rate with him and I'm still checking this thread for all of your feedback.

Now can the bonetooth necklace be upgraded with money to get the upgraded version of ward, sweeper, clairvoyance?

If not, can it automatically upgrade if he gets like...10 trophy on the tooth?