### League Math

First Riot Post

Retief

Junior Member

You really need to pick something more specific than overall power. The problem with trying to reduce overall power to a number is that so much of a champion's power isn't derived solely from the champion's numbers. Look at Thresh. What is the numeric value of his w? You can give it an arbitrary number, but its actual value depends entirely on the skill and imagination of the player.

Also, look at the value of his e. It is clearly strong in any situation, but it also becomes a lot stronger against a leona (or someone else who likes to dash into melee range), since it can be used to cancel that dash. If the player doesn't have the reflexes to pull it off or if there are no champions on the other team who want to do that, the knockback becomes a lot less useful. Trying to average out the power over all possible situations is theoretically possible, but not that useful.

Finally, look at Thresh's q. By itself, it is fairly easy to dodge, which is its main limitation. However, his q is more useful because of the slow on his e -- if you land an e, it makes it much easier to land a q. Because of this, the power of his e and q combined is more than the sum of the powers of either on their own. The dash on his q and his w stack similarly -- pulling someone else to his location would be less useful without a way to move around rapidly (skill comes in here as well -- I don't have the skill to exploit this synergy).

If you narrow your focus, you might be able to get more interesting results. However, I don't think that it is possible to assign a meaningful number to a champion's overall power.

Riot Reboot

@cupcake Nice post. Stuff like that is one of the many things my team looks at.

AxeI Foley

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Reboot
Just so I'm clear, are you thinking about mana regen or magic penetration? I've seen MP refer to both in various contexts, so just checking.

Oh that's right, you have none.

CupcakeTrap

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Reboot
@cupcake Nice post. Stuff like that is one of the many things my team looks at.
Aw, shucks. Thanks! My frosting is all a-blush.

Verandure

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by AxeI Foley

Oh that's right, you have none.
Please don't try to hijack a thread just because there's a red fist next to it...

AxeI Foley

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verandure
Please don't try to hijack a thread just because there's a red fist next to it...
It's not just any Rioter, it's the Business Intelligence Manager.

Sure, I may have been a little rude, but I want to get a response. I want to know why I might be wrong or why I might be right.

Riot Reboot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verandure
The equation is to define champion power. While some champions are more suited to certain situations, a balanced game would still have all of their "relative power levels" without too much deviation. A tank will have higher MR, scaling MR, Armor, scaling Armor, HP, HP5, steroids for those stats, or all of the above. This means that, in a balanced universe, they'd have lower ad, scaling ad, base damage, and damage scaling (only in a perfect world).

While I'm "modeling" champion power, I'm not trying to do it for only the ideal case. While that's where I'm starting, hopefully I can get something that's a little closer to the nuance and reality of the game.

(Was in a game with Pendragon, sorry for the delay).
I think the balance issue might be aside from the main gist of the convo, although it's super important because a fun game will have balance, as you said.

To the point, I'm not sure letting the independent variables define the nature of dependent variable (as opposed to the value of the dependent variable) will end up being a viable approach. I'm open to being wrong on this, and would love to see what you come up with. I'm just thinking that if you're going to take the time to go into the data, it might be worth to define the nature/point of "champ power," be it survivability, dps, synergy potential, etc. If you're starting with base stats like HP and MP, given their variety of implications for champion activity over the course of a match it may make sense to roll these up to a series of intermediate aggregated values like the aforementioned then redo the equation with these values. That way you can capture the importance of things like MP to survivability and dps separately, assigning it different weights based on the intermediate variable.

MarcosLuis97

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Reboot
@cupcake Nice post. Stuff like that is one of the many things my team looks at.
Is it just me or was your icon Vel'Koz, the new champion, a few seconds ago...

Verandure

Senior Member

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcosLuis97
Is it just me or was your icon Vel'Koz, the new champion, a few seconds ago...
Fek was "invaded" so if you have Fek, it'll change avatars to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Reboot
I think the balance issue might be aside from the main gist of the convo, although it's super important because a fun game will have balance, as you said.

To the point, I'm not sure letting the independent variables define the nature of dependent variable (as opposed to the value of the dependent variable) will end up being a viable approach. I'm open to being wrong on this, and would love to see what you come up with. I'm just thinking that if you're going to take the time to go into the data, it might be worth to define the nature/point of "champ power," be it survivability, dps, synergy potential, etc. If you're starting with base stats like HP and MP, given their variety of implications for champion activity over the course of a match it may make sense to roll these up to a series of intermediate aggregated values like the aforementioned then redo the equation with these values. That way you can capture the importance of things like MP to survivability and dps separately, assigning it different weights based on the intermediate variable.
There will be a -lot- of equations by the time I'm done. I'm drawing this up as a FORTRAN '77 program so I can have more control over scenarios.

I'm just not explaining this as well as I wish I could, but I do appreciate the advise. It's helped =P

BedderDanu

Senior Member

Champion 1 has 400 Mana and 5 MP/10, but the total cost of all his spells is 100 Mana
Champion 2 has 4000 Mana and 50 MP/10, but the total cost of all his spells is 1000 Mana

In this case, there is no difference between the two abilities. Therefore, what you really need to do is convert everything into common units. My recommendation is the following:

1) Convert everything into a per time basis for measurement.
2) Find some way of converting values into eHP based on damage type (So effective Physical Resistance, Effective Magic Damage, etc)
3) Convert move speed values into velocity values
4) Convert Mana Costs into time costs, based on either MP 5, or number of rotations until a "Blue Pill" is required
5) Try to account for dead time into the above
6) Use accounting principles, and construct a T table for Physical Damage, Magical Damage, True Damage, Physical Resistance, Magical Resistance, True Resistance, Speed, and Range (once normalized, all champion data should fit into the above categories in some way shape or form).
6b) Potentially construct one for each of the lane, mid, and end phases of the game.
7) Graph all of these on a radar plot for visual data representation. 3 radar plots for Lane, Mid, and End game.
8) Understand that once the above has been gotten to, strategy determines the champions power. It becomes closer to a CCG than a Fighting game, and certain collections of stats will beat other collections of stats, if combined properly, and a true "OP" champion will be hard to pin down. That said, outliers should be easy to spot.

I think it's doable, but it is definitely a phenomenal amount of work. For dealing with Mana/Energy directly, choose what the average harassment usage is, and determine how long you would have to wait to use it in lane without going back and find the DPS, and if you used it constantly what the DPS would be including travel time for going back. Take the average of the two. If you use energy or are manaless, then the calculation becomes easier, but the final units are the same so they can be compared.

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