Ironstylus: "We're on track to release a VU every month or so."

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Oracles VS Teemo

Member

02-03-2014

No plans for Morgana I'm guessing then?


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

02-03-2014

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Originally Posted by Oracles VS Teemo View Post
No plans for Morgana I'm guessing then?

Morg already got her QoL change and isn't in too much need of a rework otherwise AFAIK.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-03-2014

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Page after page feedback in threads like this would be impossible to parse. At the very least, in the new format, the emotional sentiments can coalesce around a comment which can be upvoted and what comments don't contribute to the conversation can sink.

Skins, Relaunch, Champions, all very different animals, also. It's one thing to be making fan art of skins. Endless possibilities and there's no IP or other such implications. Good ideas are good ideas no matter where they're cultivated from. Champion and Relaunch however, high subjective. They're much bigger beasts when it comes to ground-up creation from the character perspective.
Well the example for thread parsing I usually give is Xerath's rework. It was just one thread, but in talking about the developmental concerns (from game mechanics, to names for abilities, to new voice lines) Xelnath was able to both allay many community fears about the rework, and develop a structure currently getting a good amount of positive feedback.

Another more general 'update' thread was the "@Ezreal" thread, where Designer Ezreal would make a point to reply to perhaps almost every post. That probably isn't necessary for reworks or the like, but the sentiment of continued progress may be very valuable, in addition to the 'testing' of designs. (A trouble of that thread may have been that it was too general. "What am I going to ask specifically Ezreal about?" and the like.)

It perhaps isn't about the most upvoted comment, for often emotions can conceal valuable points of data.

It's more about skimming the totality for usefulness, while developing and defending concepts upon all the data available.

Basically that whole "you should never fear criticism" thing-- it can sting, but if you develop good reasoning for why something's done, you may tend to get more likes than dislikes.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

02-03-2014
42 of 78 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
You guys keep saying it, and I continue to be unable to believe it. Currently, in GD, there are trends in particular threads that are fairly obvious; if the OP is getting upvoted, things that agree with the OP get upvoted and things that disagree get downvoted. Likewise, the reverse is true. There is no reason to believe that this would change with the new system. Ergo, it would lead to a bunch of people agreeing with each other and upvoting things they agree with, and well reasoned arguments that disagree with the trend of that particular topic get downvoted. This is going to happen even worse in the community beta, considering that it will lead to a feedback loop. No one goes very far down in reddit threads, so the things that get seen are the things that agree with the trend the thread is going through, which means those things get posted more often which..etc.

I'm also wondering why you can't just have a community member of every place you release your game in release a thread asking for feedback on, say, the sion rework. NA will probably receive the most attention, but is there anything in particular that is preventing someone from making a thread in LoL's KR forums?
Scenario in the new community format:

Topic: "Hey IronStylus, how's that Sion relaunch going?"

Text in thread: "I know you've said it's in progress and far off, but I'm wondering if you can share anything. Thanks!"

Most upvoted comment: "I was curious as to what thematic ideas you feel are good for Sion, I for one felt that while Sion's concept is cool, it's lacking solid legs to stand on. What choices are you making, or trying to make, to shore him up as a character?"

If that comment gets to the top, I'll probably answer it as such: "While things are still work in progress, we feel we have solid direction. Some key phrases are "Undead juggernaut", "Signifying the old glory of Noxus", and "Powerfully unstoppable". Those all translate into mechanic, thematic, and artistic hooks. With those directions, which are where we're currently aiming, we feel confident we can start executing on concepts."

I can then go into further detail in subsequent posts.

Buried comment: "Shut up Riot, we know you're just lazy, admit it."

This kind of comment gets sunk to the bottom, it's not helpful, it adds to the noise, and it disenfranchises people who are in the thread for a legitimate discussion.

Above is a relatively ideal scenario. Everyone who agrees with the top comment votes it up. I, or someone else, can look at it and be like.. "Ok, this is legit, let's address it." We then don't have page after page where we're skimming through what's a) sometimes just repeating of what the common sentiment is, b) littered with noise that can be emotionally taxing to filter and c) clogged to the point of being overwhelming, we can much more accurately address the feeling and the essence of the question being asked, not have to wade through pages to get 70 different ways of stating agreement or, hitting feedback that isn't helpful, lacks context, or is otherwise difficult to deal with.

That's why AMA's function well. We can guague which questions have traction. I don't go into threads for circle jerks, I go into them to see what I can answer. If someone asks me something politely, and valid, I will answer. The new system will ensure those questions rise to the top while others which aren't the community's primary concern, fall to the bottom.

I'm extremely excited as things progress towards the new community. I can be much more active and I can actually address big chunks of feedback and answer questions in a more direct and centralized way.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

02-03-2014
43 of 78 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortferngatr View Post
While I largely disagree with the reasoning (on Reddit I've noticed that one side is simply less upvoted and both just sit in their own camps--plus I'll very often go down some distance and I suspect Rioters would as well), I have to say the questions asked are ones that seem worth answering.

That being said, I think it's a matter of "have to sift through a bunch of posts basically saying exactly the same thing and quite possibly missing some important info about stuff in the middle of the thread where the posts start to all look the same."

Multi-threaded upvote-sorted systems offer a guaranteed "hey some people like this and here are all the details of why" and minimize the amount of parsing needed to understand feedback. It also keeps all feedback about a subpost relevant to that post.
This covers a lot of my thoughts and reasoning.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

02-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Scenario in the new community format:

Topic: "Hey IronStylus, how's that Sion relaunch going?"

Text in thread: "I know you've said it's in progress and far off, but I'm wondering if you can share anything. Thanks!"

Most upvoted comment: "I was curious as to what thematic ideas you feel are good for Sion, I for one felt that while Sion's concept is cool, it's lacking solid legs to stand on. What choices are you making, or trying to make, to shore him up as a character?"

If that comment gets to the top, I'll probably answer it as such: "While things are still work in progress, we feel we have solid direction. Some key phrases are "Undead juggernaut", "Signifying the old glory of Noxus", and "Powerfully unstoppable". Those all translate into mechanic, thematic, and artistic hooks. With those directions, which are where we're currently aiming, we feel confident we can start executing on concepts."

I can then go into further detail in subsequent posts.

Buried comment: "Shut up Riot, we know you're just lazy, admit it."

This kind of comment gets sunk to the bottom, it's not helpful, it adds to the noise, and it disenfranchises people who are in the thread for a legitimate discussion.

Above is a relatively ideal scenario. Everyone who agrees with the top comment votes it up. I, or someone else, can look at it and be like.. "Ok, this is legit, let's address it." We then don't have page after page where we're skimming through what's a) sometimes just repeating of what the common sentiment is, b) littered with noise that can be emotionally taxing to filter and c) clogged to the point of being overwhelming, we can much more accurately address the feeling and the essence of the question being asked, not have to wade through pages to get 70 different ways of stating agreement or, hitting feedback that isn't helpful, lacks context, or is otherwise difficult to deal with.

That's why AMA's function well. We can guague which questions have traction. I don't go into threads for circle jerks, I go into them to see what I can answer. If someone asks me something politely, and valid, I will answer. The new system will ensure those questions rise to the top while others which aren't the community's primary concern, fall to the bottom.

I'm extremely excited as things progress towards the new community. I can be much more active and I can actually address big chunks of feedback and answer questions in a more direct and centralized way.
Yes, that's how things SHOULD work. That's not how things currently work in GD, and I see no reason why it would change when the new forums come into effect. It also leads to an issue where a comment might get downvoted for some reason or another, even if it's not a terrible comment, maybe even a good one. The person who posted that comment sees this and gets angry at the community; after all, the reason the red never saw my comment was because of these idiots who downvoted my comment because they disagreed with it! Then they rage and nothing gets done.

The reddit-style community also has issues when it comes to discussions that aren't just someone asking a question and someone else answering. If Xelnath posts a response to a comment, then he gets a bunch of other responses, and maybe he changes his mind or something, and the discussion changes track, it's hard to track. This forum has issues, but being able to sort posts chronologically helps when keeping track of, say, the Xerath thread. That could never have happened in reddit.

Then, of course, there's the sense of entitlement that happens; if a highly upvoted thread doesn't get a riot response for whatever reason, there will be no end to the QQ.


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Titiln

Senior Member

02-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
This covers a lot of my thoughts and reasoning.
Any word for some new particles/skill icons for rammus? His current ones suck atm.

Malzahar too.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

02-03-2014

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
x
Can you let us know who's up for a texture upgrade? Morgana and Lux? Or is that a separate team from the people working on VU.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

02-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
Yes, that's how things SHOULD work. That's not how things currently work in GD, and I see no reason why it would change when the new forums come into effect. It also leads to an issue where a comment might get downvoted for some reason or another, even if it's not a terrible comment, maybe even a good one. The person who posted that comment sees this and gets angry at the community; after all, the reason the red never saw my comment was because of these idiots who downvoted my comment because they disagreed with it! Then they rage and nothing gets done.

The reddit-style community also has issues when it comes to discussions that aren't just someone asking a question and someone else answering. If Xelnath posts a response to a comment, then he gets a bunch of other responses, and maybe he changes his mind or something, and the discussion changes track, it's hard to track. This forum has issues, but being able to sort posts chronologically helps when keeping track of, say, the Xerath thread. That could never have happened in reddit.

Then, of course, there's the sense of entitlement that happens; if a highly upvoted thread doesn't get a riot response for whatever reason, there will be no end to the QQ.
Not to mention that while it makes it easier for Rioters to respond, the community as a whole will have issues keeping track of thread posts chronologically when commenting back and forth.

The reddit style forums stifle discussion and turn the forums into a bulletin board for reds to post whatever they want in, with the occasional high voted threads that get responses. The new forums are unhealthy for the community, and I don't get why Riot is so obsessed with implementing them when it's been proven over and over the community hates the idea of changing the forums into a Reddit look alike.

If you want to centralize discussions, that's one thing, but the new forums simply homogenize discussion, which is a HUGE issue. :| It turns the forum into a circle jerk of upvotes and downvotes.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-03-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Buried comment: "Shut up Riot, we know you're just lazy, admit it."
Mind you, these comments actually do get upvotes. Sometimes quite a few.

That's the issue. You may get the 'fanboy' effect both ways. I can post almost the same data comment written two different ways, with one getting a ton of upvotes and another getting a ton of downvotes.

A lot of community opinion is perhaps 'how you speak' rather than 'what you say'.

Hence why it tends to be a community-interacting designer's duty (and benefit) to skim for data points.

But as a point, even if you didn't read any post in the thread, a regular post from a Rioter saying things like "today we finished the animations for Sion" or "animations delay on Sion due to a bug, brb finding Reinboom" might gain more community investment in the game.

So you have meetings to determine a champion's concept-- pretend you had that meeting on a forum.

What happens? Well, you might not be able to demonstrate what a badass Sion is with your Conan impersonation.

But you might still be able to convey useful concepts.

Now would you gain something from other people being able to see that? Perhaps if you skimmed their comments for usefulness. (And maybe badassed off any stage fright.)

But the feedback system likely need not be that involved-- prompts on current considerations may work.
(Perhaps with the dual purpose of potentially eliciting good concepts, and showing the active progress on projects the community may care for.)