@Riot Updates on Shaco rework

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xelnath

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Systems Designer

02-01-2014
8 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alacor View Post
Shaco is tossed aside time and time again. Why? At least get him some bug fixes and QoL fixes.



That work has to start sometime, though. I get that you guys have a lot of work to do, but reworking champions that have were released as recently as Rengar OVER a champion like Shaco that was released in 2009 who has had issues since his launch?

=\
The path for Rengar was much clearer than Shaco. For Rengar, we knew we wanted to clean up his core abilities a little bit, experiment with bonetooth, remove some exploits, then experiment with some ideas for his ultimate.

Shaco requires more tinkering. In the worst of cases, Shaco is frustrating to play against, stifling and frustating for everyone in lane, is an uncatchable split pusher and can lay traps that murder you without a chance to counter Shaco.

Rengar's burst vs. Shaco's inherently frustrating kit need dramatically different solutions.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hellioning

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
We realized it was a much bigger ball of yarn than it appeared to be. We had some specific ideas regarding his unique item, how to improve the feeling of his laser, etc. And it required a lot more work than we could support while getting trinkets, vision updates, new jungle, etc.

Since then, Solcrushed has still been looking at the jungle (see the new spirit stones and some work on the Wriggles line).

Post preseason, we took the time to sort out the reworks but I don't recall where he ended up.
Do you really need these big shakeups that new seasons bring? Like, I can understand a soft MMR reset every season, but having to change the game that often seems to have issues when it comes to things currently going on, and I think we can all agree that if something falls of Riot's radar it tends to stay off.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I really want to reinforce this - meaningful reworks take a long time to do right unless they are minor updates or quality of life improvements.
I also want to note how the community perceives time:

See, you're still here, talking a bit about Xerath. While you conducted the Xerath thread, you did regularly as well.

So for active reworks, a regularly updated thread with details of the rework is going to allay many concerns of the "where is it? where is it?" flavor--

The community will actually see the work being done. It won't be these sort of 'blind chirps' and occasional surprises. (Which can be rather fear causing.)

So like since you're on the forums, and visibly reading posts, I can say something like "please make Xerath's ult the Particle Cannon from command and conquer generals", and whether you answer that directly or not, if continuous progress updates come and you show data to indicate it's working well, there may be a less 'in the dark' feel.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Shyvana420

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Only problem i see wrong with shaco is his squishyness and q nerf range.

What exactly is wrong with him??


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amoralism

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Shaco is extremely underwhelming if he doesn't get early kills.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xelnath

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Systems Designer

02-01-2014
9 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
Do you really need these big shakeups that new seasons bring? Like, I can understand a soft MMR reset every season, but having to change the game that often seems to have issues when it comes to things currently going on, and I think we can all agree that if something falls of Riot's radar it tends to stay off.
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding here, but what I'm hearing is:

"Adaptation is work that can be frustrating and lead to me feeling like I've lost skill I used to have."

In that case, yes, it is necessary, yeah its frustrating. The other alternative is for the game to die as "Riot never fixes the problems" is a worse.

That's what this whole thread is about "Why haven't you fixed my mans" - answer is, there's 117 mans, plus core systemic problems that once fixed always reveal new problems.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mirage Night

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
Do you really need these big shakeups that new seasons bring? Like, I can understand a soft MMR reset every season, but having to change the game that often seems to have issues when it comes to things currently going on, and I think we can all agree that if something falls of Riot's radar it tends to stay off.
Reminds of Eve's original stealth rework and now the complete ruination of her again. Because of the Vision changes, this has resulted in them having to cut a swath out of her kit to compensate. Rather then a back up plan incase vision changes made her powerful. It'll be another 2 years before we see any progress with her again.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Alacor

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatalii View Post
Only problem i see wrong with shaco is his squishyness and q nerf range.

What exactly is wrong with him??
Deceive smoke from fog of war.

Ult clone doesn't show buffs, etc.

Incredibly reliant on early game kills. Not getting level 3 from both buffs hurts him a lot in that regard, imo.

If he doesn't get going early, he's highly unlikely to ever get going.

Other things that I can't think of right now because I'm tired. =x


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fatalii View Post
Only problem i see wrong with shaco is his squishyness and q nerf range.

What exactly is wrong with him??
And as well, for rework threads, a first post indicating a detailed reasoning for the champion's problems with the relevant examples and data may do a lot for questions like the quoted one.

People may disagree with that posted reasoning, of course.

But that's great!

That's a prompt for you to make sure it's correct, and defend it with accurate data.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hellioning

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding here, but what I'm hearing is:

"Adaptation is work that can be frustrating and lead to me feeling like I've lost skill I used to have."

In that case, yes, it is necessary, yeah its frustrating. The other alternative is for the game to die as "Riot never fixes the problems" is a worse.

That's what this whole thread is about "Why haven't you fixed my mans" - answer is, there's 117 mans, plus core systemic problems that once fixed always reveal new problems.
I meant something along the lines of 'why do you feel the need to do all of these big changes at the same time instead of spreading them out, especially considering you yourself admits it causes smaller changes to fall by the wayside?'

I'm not saying that, say, support gold income wasn't an issue that needed fixing. I'm wondering why you decided you had to do that AND rune changes AND jungle changes AND mastery changes at the same time, not to mention that most of those aren't done yet. Wouldn't it make more sense to spread these out? I understand that your patch cadence has decreased dramatically, so you want to put a bunch of extra effort into every patch so that the game doesn't feel terrible for the month each new patch takes, but it seems incredibly disruptive.

Then, of course, there's the 'we tend to lose things when we have to do these big updates' issue, but that's secondary at this point.

(As a sidenote, you are good at making me feel terrible whenever I complaing about Riot, Xelnath.)