@Riot Updates on Shaco rework

First Riot Post
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Amoralism

Senior Member

02-01-2014

I wasn't really demanding. That response seemed kind of rude. I probably speak for many when I say some updates would be enough


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CommandShockwave

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Reworks can take like a year and sometimes get canned. I wouldn't expect too much in the way of updates for a while.
Ouch... that's an incredibly disappointing response.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

02-01-2014
2 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strossus Gran View Post
I'm just guessing, but I'd guess that rework projects start and get ditched a lot more often than we think. Some designer has what he thinks is a good idea for something and sets it up in his spare time, but once he gets it prototyped it turns out to be completely unviable or unfun, so his lightbulb goes out and he has to get back to work on his assigned tasks...or the idea is too much of a change from the core concept of the champion and gets turned over to new champion assets for use in possible future champs. Either of which kills the rework.
Sometimes true, depends on what the rework involves and why it's being done though. Reworks generally fall into one of a few different categories:

1. Those that accompany a visual upgrade for a champion. Sivir's a good example of this, where our art team had plans for an upgrade to Sivir's appearance so we took the opportunity to pair some gameplay changes with that upgrade. Visual upgrades are great opportunities to do valuable, not not immediately urgent, gameplay work on a champion, because since animations/particles/sound etc are being redone anyway changing how abilities function is easy to support.

Timing on these reworks is tied to the readiness of the visual upgrade.


2. Those done because a character has gameplay issues that are creating significant problems at present. This is the category that Kassadin and Rengar currently fall into. This is the most urgent category, and one where we'll put a lot of focused effort into finding a solution, since the alternative's nerfing the champion so much the issue's aren't a major problem (something we're really trying to avoid where possible).

Timing on these reworks is dependent on how quickly we can identify and valid an appropriate solution to gameplay problems.


3. Reworks on a champion who's not a major problem, but has the potential, with some adjustments bigger than just number tweaks, to be healthier, more effective, a better take on their theme etc. This is the category Shaco falls into. He's not creating massive problems, but he struggles if unable to snowball and/or splitpush, and can be a noticeably more frustrating experience than average to play against.

Timing on these reworks can be variable, since they're much more dependent on how well an initial idea works out, what other responsibilities the person working on the rework also has and whether other emergent works pops up that needs to take priority (e.g. reworks from category 2 above).


4. Reworks on champions that aren't in particular need of work, and may even be really good already, but that someone believes could be better still. These reworks are side projects, sometimes done in someone's own time, because they've got some cool ideas they want to test out/a vision for how a champion could be better. The Miss Fortune changes ricklessabandon's testing at the moment are a good example of this. MF's not a problem, fun to play and well designed. That's not to say there might not be some good opportunities to smooth out some smaller stuff or enhance her play a bit though.

Timing on these reworks is extremely variable and these are the reworks most likely to get put aside (most often because an idea, when investigated and tested didn't work out, sometimes because something does work well but is a better fit for another rework, new champion or an item).


Finally, a couple of comments on Shaco:

1. We're still working on Shaco. Other reworks however are being given a higher priority (Xerath/Skarner being close to done, Sion being a major project that's in the early stages, Kassadin and Rengar both having much more urgent needs due to their impact on game health/other players, a couple of low gameplay impact reworks to accompany visual upgrades).

2. Shaco's a pretty difficult character to rework well. It'd be really easy to just strip away all his problematic elements and in the process remove many of his tricks and distinctive skills that people really enjoy when playing him. Finding the correct ways to fix his issues and preserve as much of his gameplay identity as possible however is much tougher, involving a lot more analysis, playtesting, iteration and sometimes, if something isn't working as hoped, restarting, than many other champions would.


Hope that explains a bit on why rework timing can vary, and why it can be hard to make any concrete estimates or promises on a rework's ETA.

TLDR: Lots of different types of rework, Shaco's a tricky one.


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Recovery

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Sometimes true, depends on what the rework involves and why it's being done though. Reworks generally fall into one of a few different categories:

1. Those that accompany a visual upgrade for a champion. Sivir's a good example of this, where our art team had plans for an upgrade to Sivir's appearance so we took the opportunity to pair some gameplay changes with that upgrade. Visual upgrades are great opportunities to do valuable, not not immediately urgent, gameplay work on a champion, because since animations/particles/sound etc are being redone anyway changing how abilities function is easy to support.

Timing on these reworks is tied to the readiness of the visual upgrade.


2. Those done because a character has gameplay issues that are creating significant problems at present. This is the category that Kassadin and Rengar currently fall into. This is the most urgent category, and one where we'll put a lot of focused effort into finding a solution, since the alternative's nerfing the champion so much the issue's aren't a major problem (something we're really trying to avoid where possible).

Timing on these reworks is dependent on how quickly we can identify and valid an appropriate solution to gameplay problems.


3. Reworks on a champion who's not a major problem, but has the potential, with some adjustments bigger than just number tweaks, to be healthier, more effective, a better take on their theme etc. This is the category Shaco falls into. He's not creating massive problems, but he struggles if unable to snowball and/or splitpush, and can be a noticeably more frustrating experience than average to play against.

Timing on these reworks can be variable, since they're much more dependent on how well an initial idea works out, what other responsibilities the person working on the rework also has and whether other emergent works pops up that needs to take priority (e.g. reworks from category 2 above).


4. Reworks on champions that aren't in particular need of work, and may even be really good already, but that someone believes could be better still. These reworks are side projects, sometimes done in someone's own time, because they've got some cool ideas they want to test out/a vision for how a champion could be better. The Miss Fortune changes ricklessabandon's testing at the moment are a good example of this. MF's not a problem, fun to play and well designed. That's not to say there might not be some good opportunities to smooth out some smaller stuff or enhance her play a bit though.

Timing on these reworks is extremely variable and these are the reworks most likely to get put aside (most often because an idea, when investigated and tested didn't work out, sometimes because something does work well but is a better fit for another rework, new champion or an item).


Finally, a couple of comments on Shaco:

1. We're still working on Shaco. Other reworks however are being given a higher priority (Xerath/Skarner being close to done, Sion being a major project that's in the early stages, Kassadin and Rengar both having much more urgent needs due to their impact on game health/other players, a couple of low gameplay impact reworks to accompany visual upgrades).

2. Shaco's a pretty difficult character to rework well. It'd be really easy to just strip away all his problematic elements and in the process remove many of his tricks and distinctive skills that people really enjoy when playing him. Finding the correct ways to fix his issues and preserve as much of his gameplay identity as possible however is much tougher, involving a lot more analysis, playtesting, iteration and sometimes, if something isn't working as hoped, restarting, than many other champions would.


Hope that explains a bit on why rework timing can vary, and why it can be hard to make any concrete estimates or promises on a rework's ETA.

TLDR: Lots of different types of rework, Shaco's a tricky one.

I think shaco is fine with the removal of Oracles..


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Gaggle of Koalas

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Sion being a major project that's in the early stages
Does this mean you have a general idea of what you want to do with him? You don't have to share of course, just wondering what constitutes "early stages" for a rework.

When we asked Morello about it a couple months back, he basically shrugged and said "we're going to have to axe him." Which was hilarious, but kind of unhelpful.


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Orange Raichu

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
TLDR: Lots of different types of rework, Shaco's a tricky one.
I'm... I'm so nervous.... I loved Shaco before, but with how hard he is to balance its gonna be goddamn hard to rework. please, make it appeal to older Shaco players <3

Edit: and thanks for the info! i forgot to thank you. I think a big reason i like this game is because the community gets to talk with Riot to contribute to the game, and hear back. its awesome seeing that you reply to threads like this


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

02-01-2014
3 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggle of Koalas View Post
Does this mean you have a general idea of what you want to do with him? You don't have to share of course, just wondering what constitutes "early stages" for a rework.

When we asked Morello about it a couple months back, he basically shrugged and said "we're going to have to axe him." Which was hilarious, but kind of unhelpful.
We've got a direction in mind for him, yes. Goals are solid, exactly how they're met, ability details in particular, very much a work in progress.


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Amoralism

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Thanks Meddler for the info.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Finding the correct ways to fix his issues and preserve as much of his gameplay identity as possible however is much tougher, involving a lot more analysis, playtesting, iteration and sometimes, if something isn't working as hoped, restarting, than many other champions would.
So I believe the question of the thread is "where are you at right now?"

I mean, Riot has pretty much always said perhaps variations of that outline on prioritization:

But the concern is likely for the general community to be more involved with that iteration and feedback cycle.

Like, if you said "we don't have a designer actively iterating on him, but when we do we'll have a detailed thread on the direction we're going, with several regularly checked feedback prompts", the forums might like that answer, and not feel so 'in the dark'.

But if there's very little active output of the design process, people get worried.

Because reworks done in secret may not have turned out as well as reworks done with more public discussion.


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Gaggle of Koalas

Senior Member

02-01-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
We've got a direction in mind for him, yes. Goals are solid, exactly how they're met, ability details in particular, very much a work in progress.
I know the phrase "undead battering ram" has been tossed around a bit. If this is the direction pursued, I have no issues. Honestly, probably would be happy with any direction, as long as it's a cohesive kit.