Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Flytrap

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vesh, I want to deconstruct this a bit from the perspective of mechanical interaction in League:

So first, you're saying her 'de-aggro' tool is Zhonya's Hourglass. That means she has to build it.
If her teamfight kit doesn't work without Zhonya's, she's going to feel really bad before she has this item, and when it's on cooldown.
It restricts player interaction with her to "I have to rush Zhonya's or fail".

Second, you're saying she's going to come out of Zhonya's and start hitting a squishy.
What does squishy mean, though? Squishy means "Caitlyn".
Remember now that Zhonya's has the hidden text of "stuns your champion for 2.5 seconds".
So what actually happens when Diana goes in is that she applies a 2 second slow and stuns herself.
Caitlyn now isn't surprised. Jinx isn't surprised. They know Diana's there.
And they've laid traps, put their fingers on CC/flash, and backed away.

No one is around for Diana to continue her melee range progression.

Who does Zhonya's initiation work on? Lissandra. Why? Because Lissandra is ranged, has the ability to deploy two Zhonya's, and perhaps has more CC than most supports.

And she still tends to be not as good at it as tanks.

Does Diana have two Zhonya's and a ton of CC? No? Then in reality she's perhaps just giving enemies 2.5 seconds to savor her death.

"What about team follow up?"

Yes, your team can follow up. But since you're not a tank, they have to worry about you dying. Which means their follow up needs to be much faster and much more powerful because after Zhonya's Hourglass wears off, if they didn't absolutely prevent every nuke and disable, "initiation" may turn into "suicide for distraction".

In order to be an actual fighter who builds offensive items and goes in first, she needs absolutely titanic defensive abilities.

Because make no mistake, Riven isn't a fighter: She's a tanky assassin, and her only goal is to Wind Slash Caitlyn instantly after stunning her.
I like you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I imagine a more fighter-type Diana to build Zhonyas and Nashor's tooth, jump into a fight, moonfall, de-aggro with zhonyas, and then come out of it and then use her second ult to jump on squishies and hit them with her passive + basic spells until they die all while staying alive with a more defensive-centric shield.

Diana should still want to be a back-line fighter (after all, if you give her the tools to jump to the carry she will do it regardless). She will still want to be on the softer targets. I don't think "tank killer" is what she wants to be or what she should be, I just think there are better ways to accomplice her goals than press QRR and one shot someone .
I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine that the majority of Diana's player-base does NOT want to see her become some lame AP Bruiser that needs to build a laundry list of items (Zhonya's, Nashor's, Rylai's, etc.) in order to be effective.

I don't really know why you have this odd fascination with Bruiser Diana, but I pray that this doesn't come to pass or I will have to stop playing one of my favorite champions.


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DemiluniS

Senior Member

01-31-2014

I'm fine with turning Diana into a fighter, I'm not fine with making zhonya's hourglass a rush item, I don't want it to be a part of her playstyle. If you want her to fill the initiator role, you have to give her tools in her kit to do it, survive afterwards and be able to fight.
She should do something that no any other champion in the game can't offer, instead of turning her into worse wukong/leona


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vesh, I want to deconstruct this a bit from the perspective of mechanical interaction in League:

So first, you're saying her 'de-aggro' tool is Zhonya's Hourglass. That means she has to build it.
If her teamfight kit doesn't work without Zhonya's, she's going to feel really bad before she has this item, and when it's on cooldown.
It restricts player interaction with her to "I have to rush Zhonya's or fail".

Second, you're saying she's going to come out of Zhonya's and start hitting a squishy.
What does squishy mean, though? Squishy means "Caitlyn".
Remember now that Zhonya's has the hidden text of "stuns your champion for 2.5 seconds".
So what actually happens when Diana goes in is that she applies a 2 second slow and stuns herself.
Caitlyn now isn't surprised. Jinx isn't surprised. They know Diana's there.
And they've laid traps, put their fingers on CC/flash, and backed away.

No one is around for Diana to continue her melee range progression.

Who does Zhonya's initiation work on? Lissandra. Why? Because Lissandra is ranged, has the ability to deploy two Zhonya's, and perhaps has more CC than most supports.

And she still tends to be not as good at it as tanks.

Does Diana have two Zhonya's and a ton of CC? No? Then in reality she's perhaps just giving enemies 2.5 seconds to savor her death.

"What about team follow up?"

Yes, your team can follow up. But since you're not a tank, they have to worry about you dying. Which means their follow up needs to be much faster and much more powerful because after Zhonya's Hourglass wears off, if they didn't absolutely prevent every nuke and disable, "initiation" may turn into "suicide for distraction".

In order to be an actual fighter who builds offensive items and goes in first, she needs absolutely titanic defensive abilities.

Because make no mistake, Riven isn't a fighter: She's a tanky assassin, and her only goal is to Wind Slash Caitlyn instantly after stunning her.
(Insert thumbs up gif) This message is heartily approved by the OP. We can be friends good man.

Vesh hear us please.


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-31-2014
17 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vesh, I want to deconstruct this a bit from the perspective of mechanical interaction in League:

So first, you're saying her 'de-aggro' tool is Zhonya's Hourglass. That means she has to build it.
If her teamfight kit doesn't work without Zhonya's, she's going to feel really bad before she has this item, and when it's on cooldown.
It restricts player interaction with her to "I have to rush Zhonya's or fail".

Second, you're saying she's going to come out of Zhonya's and start hitting a squishy.
What does squishy mean, though? Squishy means "Caitlyn".
Remember now that Zhonya's has the hidden text of "stuns your champion for 2.5 seconds".
So what actually happens when Diana goes in is that she applies a 2 second slow and stuns herself.
Caitlyn now isn't surprised. Jinx isn't surprised. They know Diana's there.
And they've laid traps, put their fingers on CC/flash, and backed away.

No one is around for Diana to continue her melee range progression.

Who does Zhonya's initiation work on? Lissandra. Why? Because Lissandra is ranged, has the ability to deploy two Zhonya's, and perhaps has more CC than most supports.

And she still tends to be not as good at it as tanks.

Does Diana have two Zhonya's and a ton of CC? No? Then in reality she's perhaps just giving enemies 2.5 seconds to savor her death.

"What about team follow up?"

Yes, your team can follow up. But since you're not a tank, they have to worry about you dying. Which means their follow up needs to be much faster and much more powerful because after Zhonya's Hourglass wears off, if they didn't absolutely prevent every nuke and disable, "initiation" may turn into "suicide for distraction".

In order to be an actual fighter who builds offensive items and goes in first, she needs absolutely titanic defensive abilities.

Because make no mistake, Riven isn't a fighter: She's a tanky assassin, and her only goal is to Wind Slash Caitlyn instantly after stunning her.
You're right. My last description was just one of many ways Diana could work (in this case with a hyper coordianted ranked team with follow-up CC). Obviously this isn't the majority of cases. In reality a more fighter-focused Diana would have a similar opening to an Assassin Diana where she waits for the tank to go in before engaging with her Q->R. The difference comes in what happens after that point.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flytrap View Post
this odd fascination with Bruiser Diana
So as a note, I don't largely have a problem with a more 'bruisery' Diana:

But it's perhaps not a simple change. She'd needs tools to make that enjoyable.

So say Q doesn't interrupt her movement: It doesn't do much damage, but is a fast scything to mark enemies she's chasing.

And say E makes her invulnerable to damage (Kayle style) for one second for each enemy champion hit.

W and R have their cooldown lowered for each enemy champion hit by Diana's abilities.

Diana gains increasing attack speed and damage the more she hits with her abilities.

That's maybe a pretty good bruisery/pursuit setup.

She can't just push Q-R and blast someone, but, if she sticks to enemies she quickly becomes horrifying.

And she can use E to survive initiation, or Syndra laughing out an R key on her.


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemiluniS View Post
I'm fine with turning Diana into a fighter, I'm not fine with making zhonya's hourglass a rush item, I don't want it to be a part of her playstyle. If you want her to fill the initiator role, you have to give her tools in her kit to do it, survive afterwards and be able to fight.
She should do something that no any other champion in the game can't offer, instead of turning her into worse wukong/leona
I said earlier that moonfall should have a pull and push effect just like the moon does to the ocean tides. E once to pull, E twice quickly to push but you can only do one. This would add alot of utility and could certainly be useful for a team. Of course their would need alot of tuning to not make things op as fk. The push could definetely be a deagrro and would work well in a bruiser kit, its unique and it fits so well thematically.


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Marcopolo69

Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
You're right. My last description was just one of many ways Diana could work (in this case with a hyper coordianted ranked team with follow-up CC). Obviously this isn't the majority of cases. In reality a more fighter-focused Diana would have a similar opening to an Assassin Diana where she waits for the tank to go in before engaging with her Q->R. The difference comes in what happens after that point.
But what i dont understand is what is she supposed to do after? AA okay cool but her passive is only after every third hit so only that third hit would actually be doing any real damage plus she wont be building any crit and life steal or even ad and there is only one good choice for as/ap. idk vesh i think your over looking some seriously big wholes in fighter dina. I just dont think it will work.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
In reality a more fighter-focused Diana would have a similar opening to an Assassin Diana where she waits for the tank to go in before engaging with her Q->R. The difference comes in what happens after that point.
Well what does happen after that point?

Tank goes in, Diana finds a Caitlyn and R's her.

When Riven does that, Caitlyn dies instantly.

When Renekton does that, he's got a Sunfire Cape.

If Diana needs to hit Q first to do anything, Kha'Zix is better than her.

If Diana builds offensive items, but doesn't instant kill, Riven is better than her.

Jax is actually a tanky assassin himself. He Q, AA, W, AA, Thump, Stun, etc. He doesn't need skillshots, and can 100% dodge/tankult if he wants.

So you have a request Vesh, and that seems to be: Melee, Offensive Items, Not-assassin-level-burst, No Tank Items.

That means she needs better than 100% dodge and +45 resists. Much better.


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Gospel Noctis

Senior Member

01-31-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
You're right. My last description was just one of many ways Diana could work (in this case with a hyper coordianted ranked team with follow-up CC). Obviously this isn't the majority of cases. In reality a more fighter-focused Diana would have a similar opening to an Assassin Diana where she waits for the tank to go in before engaging with her Q->R. The difference comes in what happens after that point.
So, what I get from this is that you want fighter Diana to play like assassin Diana, but with less damage. Am I getting that right? If that's the case, just give me assassin Diana. I'd rather go in, kill someone and die, then go in do a small amount of upfront damage then get killed before really doing anything meaningful.


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CTM brooTool

Member

01-31-2014

iono, i main diana mid and i can say she is a beast.lol....i get level 6 and instantly all in and 70% get a kill or 30% make them flash and back with no damage taken. she has to be one of the strongest snowballing mid laners. 2-3 kills and sorc boots and blasting wand make her un-duellable, a beast in skirmishes and a great initiator. I have played her both assassin and tank and they are both very good. I have deleted adc's and a ap's fastet than a geared veigar. she melts tanks and with zhonyas she can q>r>w>e and zhonya's and half life 2-3 members if they are grouped. watch scarra play her in season 3. you have yo be feerless and know when to go in. I have dove 5v1 and melted half their team and zhonya's. then guess what here comes my team to DESTROY. I do agree, she does need a slight buff, but not by damage, i think she needs to be able to use her R only on allies which would put her R on full cool down ( not minions and wards cause that would be OP) this way she could escape certain situations and make her a much more viable player.