Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

First Riot Post
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invincible13matt

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jancarius View Post
Eww. So then she wouldn't have any burst, would you buff R and E range, and buff the ratios ro make up for it?
Isn't that burst part of the problem in balancing Diana? Why does Diana need to have burst?


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TheDarkHarbinger

Junior Member

01-30-2014

After reading some of the posts here, I think the biggest issue with Diana is nobody knows what they want her to do. To me, she feels like she should be a melee mage/fighter, not a fighter/mage. This would solidify her bursty nature while maintaining SOME durability, her initiate being by nature of her being a melee primary for her abilities and lacking as powerful of a harass. How I think she needs to be balanced....

1) Get rid of her magic resist per level, she has enough range where she doesn't need it, and she needs to be squishier overall. Right now it's making her role confusing.

2) Her Q minion clear is too strong late game and is even annoying early game, let it do 50-66% damage to then instead of full. This will let her have more power in other places.

3) Get rid of her passive attack speed, but let her have normal attack speed per level. If she needs more power still, let her get bonus attack speed from scaling ability power.

4) Her W is unreliable unless she hits all 3 orbs, one thought is to let the shield come on full blast and allow the orbs to only do a duration refresh, but not a strength refresh. A shield for a mage is nice, especially if you think about champs like Karma and Lux. Diana also does not have any form of sustain, so it helps keep her on par with mage/fighters like Swain and Ryze.

5) Change her E from a pull into a lower power AoE damage ability (.5-.6 AP ratio) that still slows. She could gain some sort of power bonus after using the ability for each champion hit (maybe attack speed that could be removed from the passive?).

6) SLIGHTLY increase the cooldown on her ult, make sure it's important for her to be not at full potential while her ult is on cooldown, just like with any other mage.


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invincible13matt

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkHarbinger View Post
To me, she feels like she should be a melee mage/fighter, not a fighter/mage.
How do you figure? Her kit is clearly more in line with that of a fighter, with the shield, attack speed steroid/AA steroid, short cooldown AoE damage, and potential repeatable reset. In honesty, it's more like someone gave her a fighter kit and accidentally gave her one of the highest cumulative scalings in the game than someone who was looking to build an assassin and gave her way too much DPS and durability.

Actually, given Riot's recent track record of assassins, I suppose it's more likely than I think, but I still think my theory is better.


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IAmBloodThirsty

Recruiter

01-30-2014

Diana is quite a good champion post 6 but pre 6 she does not provide the assassin, or fighter that she is told to be. With your idea about making the spheres bigger; I don't think that it is necessary as pre 6 as Diana, I tend to be more passive and just farm up my cs just knowing how powerful i will become after i get my ultimate.
With Diana's W (Pale Cascade), I believe that her orbs are good enough as they are as if you are getting close to them in general, it would be post level 6 as you ult right to them. If you were to increase the hit box of the individual orbs her early game would be too over powered early game. Diana's late game W doesn't seem that significant as it does Magic damage per orb: 22/34/46/58/70(+20%AP), and her shield from proc'ing the orbs gives her 40/55/70/85/100(+30%AP) This does not seem so significant to me in her early,mid or late game. I agree that there should be a change but more to the base damage and the AP scaling ratios as well. Diana's W would seem more useful in my eyes if it was: 28/40/54/72/90(+30%AP).
I do like your idea of adding base damage for her passive but i think you could add this in addition to her already existing passive but lower the AP scaling ratios with both. As of now, Diana's passive does 20/25/30/35/40/50/60/70/80/90/105/120/135/155/175/200/225/250(+ 60% AP)every third consecutive attack in a short time window. Riot could change the AP scaling ratio from +60% AP damage added into: +30-40% AP damage. This of course would be added into the newly talked about passive of giving her a basic attack damage boost like Riven or Lucian like you said. I feel like you could also add a +10-20% AP damage boost on top of that so her early game is not too over powered but she excels as a late game assassin champion but without a cooldown so that Nashor's tooth is more of a viable item with her.
With Diana's E (Moonfall) the animation seems a bit awkward and when it looks like they should be pulled in; they simply just walk away from it. Instead of her smashing into the ground with that little delay, it should be instant. I'm not sure what animation could replace this like maybe her punching the sky idk, but it should be a little bit more instant in my opinion.
I like Diana's ult but there is just one problem that just won't settle with me. The cooldown duration of it. As of now this is the statistics for the skill; Range: 825 Cooldown: 25/20/15 Cost:50/65/80 mana. This is just too short with the amount of damage that one combo could do. If you were to try to pull off a Q R combo with Diana and miss her Q, the cooldown on her ult is just too short to really care about it, she should be played with more strategy rather than just hoping that your Q hits. The cooldown should be more of a punishment if you were to miss the combo which is why I propose instead of a cooldown of: 25/20/15, it instead should be: 60/50/40. This ult cooldown is still shorter than most other mid champions and would still be as effective if you were to pull off her Q R combo.
Nothing much more I could think about to make her more balanced and because i'm not a designer, I'm not exactly sure how all of these ratios would work out early, mid and late game but they seem pretty fair and reasonable to me.
TL;DR Diana is completely playable now but a few simple changes to the base damage, AP scaling ratios and cooldowns on her would make her a lot more viable for gameplay.
Statistics for Diana from: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Diana


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TheDarkHarbinger

Junior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
How do you figure? Her kit is clearly more in line with that of a fighter, with the shield, attack speed steroid/AA steroid, short cooldown AoE damage, and potential repeatable reset. In honesty, it's more like someone gave her a fighter kit and accidentally gave her one of the highest cumulative scalings in the game than someone who was looking to build an assassin and gave her way too much DPS and durability.

Actually, given Riot's recent track record of assassins, I suppose it's more likely than I think, but I still think my theory is better.
Kiting with Q, initiating with ult, shields that scale off of AP, and the short AoE cooldown sounds a lot like a mage to me. She's not supposed to be like any other champion, but everyone is trying to get her to fit into being a fighter or assassin. Granted, a raw AP fighter might still work for her, but it would be more straight forward for her to become a melee based mage/fighter.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBloodThirsty View Post
Diana is quite a good champion post 6 but pre 6 she does not provide the assassin, or fighter that she is told to be. With your idea about making the spheres bigger; I don't think that it is necessary as pre 6 as Diana, I tend to be more passive and just farm up my cs just knowing how powerful i will become after i get my ultimate.
With Diana's W (Pale Cascade), I believe that her orbs are good enough as they are as if you are getting close to them in general, it would be post level 6 as you ult right to them. If you were to increase the hit box of the individual orbs her early game would be too over powered early game. Diana's late game W doesn't seem that significant as it does Magic damage per orb: 22/34/46/58/70(+20%AP), and her shield from proc'ing the orbs gives her 40/55/70/85/100(+30%AP) This does not seem so significant to me in her early,mid or late game. I agree that there should be a change but more to the base damage and the AP scaling ratios as well. Diana's W would seem more useful in my eyes if it was: 28/40/54/72/90(+30%AP).
I do like your idea of adding base damage for her passive but i think you could add this in addition to her already existing passive but lower the AP scaling ratios with both. As of now, Diana's passive does 20/25/30/35/40/50/60/70/80/90/105/120/135/155/175/200/225/250(+ 60% AP)every third consecutive attack in a short time window. Riot could change the AP scaling ratio from +60% AP damage added into: +30-40% AP damage. This of course would be added into the newly talked about passive of giving her a basic attack damage boost like Riven or Lucian like you said. I feel like you could also add a +10-20% AP damage boost on top of that so her early game is not too over powered but she excels as a late game assassin champion but without a cooldown so that Nashor's tooth is more of a viable item with her.
With Diana's E (Moonfall) the animation seems a bit awkward and when it looks like they should be pulled in; they simply just walk away from it. Instead of her smashing into the ground with that little delay, it should be instant. I'm not sure what animation could replace this like maybe her punching the sky idk, but it should be a little bit more instant in my opinion.
I like Diana's ult but there is just one problem that just won't settle with me. The cooldown duration of it. As of now this is the statistics for the skill; Range: 825 Cooldown: 25/20/15 Cost:50/65/80 mana. This is just too short with the amount of damage that one combo could do. If you were to try to pull off a Q R combo with Diana and miss her Q, the cooldown on her ult is just too short to really care about it, she should be played with more strategy rather than just hoping that your Q hits. The cooldown should be more of a punishment if you were to miss the combo which is why I propose instead of a cooldown of: 25/20/15, it instead should be: 60/50/40. This ult cooldown is still shorter than most other mid champions and would still be as effective if you were to pull off her Q R combo.
Nothing much more I could think about to make her more balanced and because i'm not a designer, I'm not exactly sure how all of these ratios would work out early, mid and late game but they seem pretty fair and reasonable to me.
TL;DR Diana is completely playable now but a few simple changes to the base damage, AP scaling ratios and cooldowns on her would make her a lot more viable for gameplay.
Statistics for Diana from: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Diana
Her ult would need a serious damage buff to have such a cooldown. I agree that having to rely on your Q is tedious but honestly anyone with any kind of gap opener gets away for sure if you use the R without the Q. The whole fighter thing is just strange because I can't see how they would make it so she was worth picking over other mid laners or bruisers because so many champs do the whole iniate schtick. That's the main reason I feel like if she has to be one or the other they should figure out how to make the assassin thing work.

Aside from personal liking tell me why you would top lane Diana over Aatrox, Zac, Jarvan or Malphite for an initator role? They all have higher disruption and are more durable than her. If you go from the jungle perspective and throw in Nocturne, Sejuani, Amumu and Nautilus it gets really sad. From mid lane initiates I can only think of Lissandra, Orianna and Gragas at the moment. The point is I have named at least ten champions that bring initiation to the table and do it better. So how are we gonna make her as good at something as ten percent of the roster already is and maintain her unique even if it is somewhat binary play style?


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Her ult would need a serious damage buff to have such a cooldown. I agree that having to rely on your Q is tedious but honestly anyone with any kind of gap opener gets away for sure if you use the R without the Q. The whole fighter thing is just strange because I can't see how they would make it so she was worth picking over other mid laners or bruisers because so many champs do the whole iniate schtick. That's the main reason I feel like if she has to be one or the other they should figure out how to make the assassin thing work.

Aside from personal liking tell me why you would top lane Diana over Aatrox, Zac, Jarvan or Malphite for an initator role? They all have higher disruption and are more durable than her. If you go from the jungle perspective and throw in Nocturne, Sejuani, Amumu and Nautilus it gets really sad. From mid lane initiates I can only think of Lissandra, Orianna and Gragas at the moment. The point is I have named at least ten champions that bring initiation to the table and do it better. So how are we gonna make her as good at something as ten percent of the roster already is and maintain her unique even if it is somewhat binary play style?
Well said and i completely agree. She needs her own spot and where she is at right now is certainly not working. I suggest various different changes on the pbe that are minor tweaks to power range etc. If these do not work then a change in role is in order. Me personally i am no longer sure where she belongs a lot of people have valid points. I am just worried she is going to be thematically destroyed in the process of changing her. I am also not sure what Riot originally had her tagged as. I think we need to go back and look at her theme/background and make a final judgement on what role she partakes in but at the same time keeping her originality. Regardless of the direction some people will be disappointed


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Also, I remember someone posting a screenshot of Scarra's twitch chat. Why not post this thread in there when he is streaming and see if you can get his opinion? He is one of the most famous Diana players and one of the three players I can recall playing her during Summer split. I am sure he could bring some intelligent light here if he felt like gracing us with his presence.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSSB Lunaspike View Post
What..you are calling my malphite an assassin now? My poor zac too? Lucky that warwick just barely escaped the cutoff. I can still call him a tank too.

What? You didn't know the range on their initiate??
Well ww starts at 700
Malph is 1k, zac is ..yeah if you've ever played against zac is big enough

some pages
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Malphite
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zac




Dianna fails to accomplish anything as a champion. People seem to be under the impression that she is powerful. That kind of makes me laugh. If you are looking for a real assassin there are plenty of them available. I would personally run kass but that's just me, plus I won't ever get to play it in ranked anyway. There are other options like fizz, akali, kat, that do the job far better than dianna while still having better mobility than she has.

I've had some fun in normals with her building her as sunfire/abyssal/mr boots/ then just initiate for your team. Finish it off with Rand omen, bv, maybe hourglass for more tank/some damage. It's fun, but not nearly as good as other champions.

I like how there is so much talk about how "powerful" dianna is in this thread. Yeah, she sure is. Did you see her performance at the lcs last week?

Not sure why you bothered to quote me. I pretty clearly agree that she's weak. That would be the point of the thread....if I'm not mistaken.

I was refering to targeted gap closers. Not just any movement abilities. I obviously don't think Lissandra is an assassin.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxReeboBand View Post
Well said and i completely agree. She needs her own spot and where she is at right now is certainly not working. I suggest various different changes on the pbe that are minor tweaks to power range etc. If these do not work then a change in role is in order. Me personally i am no longer sure where she belongs a lot of people have valid points. I am just worried she is going to be thematically destroyed in the process of changing her. I am also not sure what Riot originally had her tagged as. I think we need to go back and look at her theme/background and make a final judgement on what role she partakes in but at the same time keeping her originality. Regardless of the direction some people will be disappointed
When I fist started playing I am positive she was tagged as an assassin but we would need to find one of the older shots of her champion page. I honestly always thought the shield was so that you could build glass cannaon and not get sneezed away. I just don't want the optimal build path to revolve around sun fire cape. That would be too much of a slap in the face for her character.

Add me on my main account though you seem cool. I am by no means the best player or even close I just understand how to play a few champions well enough but if you wanna goof around and I happen to be available it would be cool. LtSmashFSP is me.