What we expected when Riot said "Support Utility will scale with AP"

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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by mertatron View Post
yeah .. the damage is better ONLY IF U BUILD AP. but if u want to survive an annie burst + stun + her ADC ... u don't build 200 AP, u build HP, armor, MR

so that's why I say I agree and disagree .. on paper they gained much ... more scaling and more money to by items. on game they build tanky + CDR so the only "support" who were buffed are taric and leona coz they have HP, armor, mr scaling.

for exemple sona ... she her damage stayed the same and her utility is a bit lower than in S3 if she builds no AP. for janna, even her tornado damage got lowered, and and speed boost/ slow is lower too if u don't build AP.

and at the end of the day, all they AP ratios are too low to really be that meaningfull.
Again, Annie needs nerfs.

Annie is a problem.

Annie must go.

The problem is Annie, not utility scaling.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
Again, Annie needs nerfs.

Annie is a problem.

Annie must go.

The problem is Annie, not utility scaling.



Except both Thresh and Leona share similar toxicity issues in bot lane as Annie that you are refuseing to seen in your blind focus when it comes to placing blame on Annie.

Like wise the things that made Lulu and Sona good against Thresh and Leona in the past was high base damage and utility in the early game to push him around with. With those things being nerfed to account for this utility scaling it is very accurate to say utility scaling IS a problem.


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
This is because you don't understand what subtle actually is. You, like most others, want that immediate impact to see the high damage or the crawling slow. You don't want the unoffical assist when you team caught one of the enemy because of your ward coverage. You don't have the appreciation for knowing that your tryn/jax/zed/etc can split push safelty because of wards you provided, or your team successfully baited baron because you fully controlled vision.

You and me remind me of a scene from Indiana Jones. I was the guy who trained for years became a master of the sword, understood its finess and could best anyone with ease. You are just the random guy who pulls a gun and thinks he's awesome. If you really understood what being subtle was you would be just against these changes as many of us have been.

Actually, it's more that I don't want to constrain myself to one and only one thing, Wards. I ward constantly, I tell people to thank me for that ward that just saved their ass (my friends get an ear load so they remember how important wards are). But again, why should this be the support's job? Why should You or I have to resort to blowing our gold on a mechanic that is otherwise considered a team effort?

It's not that I don't see it as important, it's that I don't see why only one person should be doing it. Due to my constant nagging, all my friends buy wards and use their Trinkets and had no problem transitioning into the new ward meta, unlike many other players who still fail to ward properly.

This is less about enjoying the subtleties of vision and more about how I want my gold to go towards making my plays count. I bought a ward stone, I use it, now let me actually get something else that helps us.

But if you would rather lose out on Twin Shadows, Morellos or Frozen Heart so you can play the ward mini-game, fine by me, go make your case to a Red on how that's a much better way to support.


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Chiquihuite

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

If it's any consolation, I really like Lulu in her current form. And she already does turn people into racecars with 1-2 AP items >_>


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SmokingPuffin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
Again, Annie needs nerfs.

Annie is a problem.

Annie must go.

The problem is Annie, not utility scaling.
Annie is not the only problem. She's obviously too strong (or alternatively that magey supports are too weak), but you don't get to the promised land by deleting Annie. Heck, the final 4 at OGN Winter saw more Alistar picks than Annie picks. Being tanky is what's in, and that's true even when Annie is banned out.

Also, the problem with utility scaling is not only one of balance. It's also one of feel. Most of the utility scaling effects they chose read very poorly; effects like Soraka Q, Nami E, and Janna W don't feel like they do anything at all. If you're going to make people happy with utility scaling, the effects need to feel worth buying AP for.


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Except both Thresh and Leona share similar toxicity issues in bot lane as Annie that you are refuseing to seen in your blind focus when it comes to placing blame on Annie.
Because Thresh and Leona (Mainly Leona) were not problem champions and in fact Leona was constantly being complained about being underpowered.

Thresh and Leona are the only other supports who can handle Annie, that's why they are popular down Bot against her. Tank Masteries have given both Thresh and Leona more sustain than they ever needed, Dorans is not helping either.

Both Masteries and Dorans have caused similar problems to other lanes, mostly the "Your damage is nulled, ha," effect.

What you are asking, along with many others, is to Nerf both Leona and Thresh on the basis that they are popular picks due to how they counter Annie and how they take no damage, when they are only popular because of Annie and new Masteries.

So why take two champions, who were considered Good and Underpowered before everything and nerf them when it's one champion that is making a mess of everything as well as an overtuning of one tree and item?

Nerfing them won't make Annie anyless powerful nor will it make the other systematic problem go away. Once both Annie and Masteries/Dorans are taken care of and they are still a problem, then nerf them. Till then, fix what's actually broken.


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mertatron

Senior Member

01-30-2014

annie isn't the pb ....

she just bring what is needed bot lane.
she became played as a sup by the end of S3. even though she hasn't been changed much.

the pb is that she got kicked out of mid ... her low spellrange is one of the major issue. while there's no such pb botlane coz u can hide in the brush, and also that most sup have low spellrange too.

if she became popular, and zyra/fiddle before her ... it's because traditionnal supports don't bring what people want. maybe because soraka/janna are too passive .. because sona is too squishy and had no hard CC till lvl 6, because lulu or nami don't deal enough damage or just because annie's stun is so powerfull and so easy to land.


janna has a great ult .. with wich u can make great plays, whether to protect and heal and KB enemies or to isolate one enemy from his team to kill him ... but it's so much harder to use than tibbers + stun + 2 damage spell and done.

tibbers + stun is way more easy to land than nami's bubble ... coz it's instant and no warning, so much better than nami's wave too and her stun can come back so rapidly.



but to me she's not the problem ... she shows the problem with bot lane and supports


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
Actually, it's more that I don't want to constrain myself to one and only one thing, Wards. I ward constantly, I tell people to thank me for that ward that just saved their ass (my friends get an ear load so they remember how important wards are). But again, why should this be the support's job? Why should You or I have to resort to blowing our gold on a mechanic that is otherwise considered a team effort?

It's not that I don't see it as important, it's that I don't see why only one person should be doing it. Due to my constant nagging, all my friends buy wards and use their Trinkets and had no problem transitioning into the new ward meta, unlike many other players who still fail to ward properly.

This is less about enjoying the subtleties of vision and more about how I want my gold to go towards making my plays count. I bought a ward stone, I use it, now let me actually get something else that helps us.

But if you would rather lose out on Twin Shadows, Morellos or Frozen Heart so you can play the ward mini-game, fine by me, go make your case to a Red on how that's a much better way to support.


Your view of this situation is distorted, much like mine was, because you seem to constantly be playing with the same ppl. These are ppl u can coach, educate and call out for things like warding. This means the vision changes are irrelevant to you. In solo Q however the story is very different. You can't coach, educate or call our ppl like you can with friends without getting backlash. This means often even if you understand the importance of vision and want to properly control it you CAN'T not because of any fault of your own but because game mechanics say no. I can't even begin to explain how stupid it is that player skill is literally inhibited by an in game mechanic. It would be like the NFL telling QBs "you can only throw X number of passes" and the only way to get around it would be to have wide recievers or running bacls throw the ball. Its a rather stupid skill limiting mechanic that frankly needs to go.


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Rhiljeryne

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I'm not really concerned at all with their current power, or that of the alternatives that crowd them out. The fact they got stat scaling at all gives me the knowledge that this support paradigm enabling them to be much stronger already has the green light. The only thing that concerns me now is the speed of the tuning. I think most people like the direction it's going in, we just wish we could get there faster.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-30-2014
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
Again, Annie needs nerfs.

Annie is a problem.

Annie must go.

The problem is Annie, not utility scaling.
I think Annie's presence warps the rest of it massively too, I agree.