Why isn't Janna allowed to have any meaningful rewards for charging Q?

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SilvertonguedDvl

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
As long as it sucks against minions so that it doesn't turn into guaranteed wave-clear. "Why should I pick Janna" should be supported by this reward structure (maybe pressure damage could be one.)
But... there are mages who have guaranteed/rapid waveclear with minimal/nonexistent AP. Ahri can rapidly get to the point where she can easily waveclear. Gragas, of course. Galio is pretty adept at it. Malzahar, Heimerdinger, Morgana and Twisted Fate. Mordekaiser, Cho'gath -- even Veigar can waveclear quite easily if he has a moment to set it up. Heck, what about Vladimir?

I understand that your concern is that very little can be done to stop Janna from murdering an entire wave of minions since she can cast it and immediately back off... but many of these other champions are similarly difficult to deny. They simply cast a long-ranged skillshot for massive damage, kill most (if not all) of the minions and can clean the rest up rapidly as they get nearer.

Assuming Janna will never have anywhere near the ratios of these particular mages in terms of overall DPS (easy to do with only two offensive spells) what, then, is wrong with allowing Janna to waveclear roughly as effectively as they can, assuming she builds AP and forces the full charge of her tornado? That's already at least as much investment as Morgana must put in to place Tormented Soil in a position where it will hit both melee and ranged minions, and the ranges are fairly similar.

Bear in mind I'm not asking for her to waveclear once her tornado hits level 3, but... why not let her do it at level 4-5? That way she can't use it oppressively in the very early game, but as the game progresses she can defend towers (as well as champions) and otherwise act as a general deterrent in a fashion similar to Anivia; making it harder to siege and goading people into engagements. Given her overall substantially less damage she can make up for it with her CC, making her a fairly unique choice for an AP Mid; one you pick when you want to stall the enemy team from pushing/engaging risklessly.


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
To be honest, I dont think mage janna is a problem at all. Especially with the continuous nerfs to her Zephyr, the AP ratio nerf on shield durability and the HUGE nerfs to Q. The fact Janna even has to charge Q so long and it moves so slowly means that if you're getting hit by an AP janna Q, you probably aren't playing optimally or she straight up outplayed you hard by forcing you to run a certain direction.

I personally think that Q needs to do as much damage at FULL charge as it used to do before the season 4 nerf slew that she got :/ You can leave it so it does less in instant cast, but that ability just got nerfed way harder than it should have, both in AP ratio and base damage.

Janna's kit overall feels incredibly weak right now, because she needs a giant amount of AP for her shield buff to really even be noticeable to her ADC. Not to mention you guys gutted her passive range.
The problem with the 'Nado is that, while you can dodge a charged one as a champion pretty easily, minions do not have the luxury of being able to move out of harm's way. Hence, to do its big damages, it would need to do reduced damage to minions (or increased damage to champions, which should math out to the same numbers).


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Jasado

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01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
As long as it sucks against minions so that it doesn't turn into guaranteed wave-clear. "Why should I pick Janna" should be supported by this reward structure (maybe pressure damage could be one.)
Would something like

"leaves a torrent of wind continuing to go in the same direction of howling gale, slowing all champions not headed in the direction(ish) of the wind by X%, this torrent lasts for X seconds"

In this case, people who were running and happened to be hit by a charged Q can still escape if that was their intent, but people who were running against the wind are hard disengaged even further - but can also lead to stick situations if multiple people are caught inside the wind and slowed during teamfights with aoe dmg.

Although this now opens the emergent gameplay of preemptively charging Q behind the enemy offensively, and giving up the peel/knock up to create a weaker, no damage version of flame chompers, hm.

This, instead of damage or hard cc, provides I think some depth to the spell while still making it gratifying?

I think a lot could be done with fully charge q.


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvertonguedDvl View Post
But... there are mages who have guaranteed waveclear with minimal/nonexistent AP. Ahri can rapidly get to the point where she can easily waveclear. Gragas, of course. Galio is pretty adept at it. Malzahar, Heimerdinger, Morgana and Twisted Fate. Mordekaiser, Cho'gath -- even Veigar can waveclear quite easily if he has a moment to set it up. Heck, what about Vladimir?

I understand that your concern is that very little can be done to stop Janna from murdering an entire wave of minions since she can cast it and immediately back off... but many of these other champions are similarly difficult to deny. They simply cast a long-ranged skillshot for massive damage, kill most (if not all) of the minions and can clean the rest up rapidly as they get nearer.

Assuming Janna will never have anywhere near the ratios of these particular mages in terms of overall DPS (easy to do with only two offensive spells) what, then, is wrong with allowing Janna to waveclear roughly as effectively as they can, assuming she builds AP and forces the full charge of her tornado? That's already at least as much investment as Morgana must put in to place Tormented Soil in a position where it will hit both melee and ranged minions, and the ranges are fairly similar.
Because, in addition to her waveclear, that Janna would have a massive, AD increasing shield, tons of slow, and a heal that could 600+1.8 AP. Basically, because she'd have massive utility in addition to her damage.


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Sophitia

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfDrDeath View Post
The problem with the 'Nado is that, while you can dodge a charged one as a champion pretty easily, minions do not have the luxury of being able to move out of harm's way. Hence, to do its big damages, it would need to do reduced damage to minions (or increased damage to champions, which should math out to the same numbers).
The thing about Janna's tornado killing minions off is that a fed AP Janna isn't going to do a lot as opposed to a fed Ziggs or Gragas. She is not, (and probably won't ever be again) capable of going mid and being highly successful unless it's an extremely niche matchup. There's simply better choices than her. She only has 2 damaging abilities. She has her Torando and Zyphyr, both of which are weak when used in immediate tandem due to how little damage Q does upon quick casting it. If Janna uses her Q to clear a minion wave, that means she still can't clear the back minions without coming close, and she only has one damaging spell to hit you with during that 9-10 second time frame that Q is down.

Not to mention AP Janna can't start clearing a minion wave until she gets some points in Q and a decent amount of AP. She actually has a decent amount of counterplay.


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ColdJr

Senior Member

01-30-2014

While we're on the subject of things not being allowed, why was lulu's ap bonus on whimsy removed?


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SilvertonguedDvl

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfDrDeath View Post
Because, in addition to her waveclear, that Janna would have a massive, AD increasing shield, tons of slow, and a heal that could 600+1.8 AP. Basically, because she'd have massive utility in addition to her damage.
I'm aware. Her damage/shield/slow AP ratios on those abilities could be fairly effectively since the support Janna will ostensibly rely on the base damages rather than the ratios for those abilities.

Ultimately by picking her as a mid option will still hinder your team in that you'll have substantially less damage output in terms of magic damage. You're giving up overwhelming damage/those awesome setpiece ultimates of team-dooming in return for the CC.


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Soiyeruda

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Power-wise, I think it's fine, but I'm very hesistant to variable-length CC. That being said, if there was ever a skill to consider it on, this is one of the better ones.
I never understood the hesitation with this. You seem fine on it with Ashe and when Taric used to have his 1-2s stun based off distance, I always considered it backwards that he got 2 seconds from the longest distance as that almost always became the correct choice as time went on; it would have made more sense to make Taric stun more at close range.

I also think it's intuitive enough. If I saw a tiny tornado that sat for 3 seconds then got hit by it, I'd expect to be in the air for longer than one that had no charge period.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-30-2014
6 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilvertonguedDvl View Post
But... there are mages who have guaranteed/rapid waveclear with minimal/nonexistent AP. Ahri can rapidly get to the point where she can easily waveclear. Gragas, of course. Galio is pretty adept at it. Malzahar, Heimerdinger, Morgana and Twisted Fate. Mordekaiser, Cho'gath -- even Veigar can waveclear quite easily if he has a moment to set it up. Heck, what about Vladimir?

I understand that your concern is that very little can be done to stop Janna from murdering an entire wave of minions since she can cast it and immediately back off... but many of these other champions are similarly difficult to deny. They simply cast a long-ranged skillshot for massive damage, kill most (if not all) of the minions and can clean the rest up rapidly as they get nearer.

Assuming Janna will never have anywhere near the ratios of these particular mages in terms of overall DPS (easy to do with only two offensive spells) what, then, is wrong with allowing Janna to waveclear roughly as effectively as they can, assuming she builds AP and forces the full charge of her tornado? That's already at least as much investment as Morgana must put in to place Tormented Soil in a position where it will hit both melee and ranged minions, and the ranges are fairly similar.

Bear in mind I'm not asking for her to waveclear once her tornado hits level 3, but... why not let her do it at level 4-5? That way she can't use it oppressively in the very early game, but as the game progresses she can defend towers (as well as champions) and otherwise act as a general deterrent in a fashion similar to Anivia; making it harder to siege and goading people into engagements. Given her overall substantially less damage she can make up for it with her CC, making her a fairly unique choice for an AP Mid; one you pick when you want to stall the enemy team from pushing/engaging risklessly.
Right - but those champions also don't have the utility of an entire kit designed to force-multiply other characters and be a supporting force. Since the conversation is how that feels unsatisfying (and I agree it needs to be better later in the game), you can't add the safety of 2-3 defensive peels for self and teammates to that kind of power. Morgana stalemates with 1 and spellvamp...


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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Power-wise, I think it's fine, but I'm very hesistant to variable-length CC (the durations being standard per-skill makes timing games surrounding it intuitive). That being said, if there was ever a skill to consider it on, this is one of the better ones.

When referring to power, are you talking about damage, CC, or both?

You guys say you want to make the distinction between supports and mages more clear, however you just can't do that without increasing utility.

I think people would be fine with doing no damage late-game as a support, but you've got to give them something in return. This is why there are so many threads about utility scaling.


TL;DR - have you actually TRIED giving supports more utility and lowering the damage even further? Your tone makes it sound as if you didn't. I think you should; that's what your balance team and teh PBE is for.


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