Morello I'm going to give you a proposition that you can not refute.

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Worst Riven EUNA

Senior Member

01-30-2014

I like how the moment Morello wrote that last sentence, half the posters freaked out about Shyvana.

I think that shows how much the community trusts Riot to "balance" a champion upon deciding to alter their kit.


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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
I think ADC feels very satisfying to play. Maybe you just don't like playing ADC?



Hard counters are not gameplay. Everything should have play and counterplay.
Hard counters back then you could play around through itemization and ganks. Currently its whoever gets the advantage first, then no recovery unless your jungler ganks within a certain frame.

I personally found the rotating wall of counters more fun, even when countered. In fact, I liked it more because I felt more skillful when mitigating the impact of a hard counter in my lane than when winning a lane.

Also the rotating wall of counters make a HUGE number of champs viable top lane, even ones that almost never made appearances there or anywhere else in the game.


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Dark Pony Prince

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post
I think ADC feels very satisfying to play. Maybe you just don't like playing ADC?
I'd rather play Torchlight than play ADC and most of the time I just right click in TL2.
ADCs rely so much on AAs that it becomes antifun. Want to be a good ADC ? Practice your right clicking all day.
Wanna be a good jungler ? Lean the roads, when to gank, when to countergank, what item to pick and when, where to ward and why, etc. Similarly same deal for everyone else. And as stated before ADC is a lot less of all that and a lot more of right clicks.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Jinx - extreme lack of mobility.

Lucian - chugs mana.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-30-2014
2 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
"less bad" is still... less bad.

ADCs are the worst right now. The game revolves around them yet they are a very boring class that never feels satisfying to play. How does that make for a good game?

And what's wrong with a rotating wall of hard counters? Better than rotating spreadsheet of who has the most Damage*survivability while auto attacking from range.
Are they unsatisfying for you, or in general game design terms? In game design terms, ADC's are quite satisfying to play well because of the highs/lows/impact of success/failure. Damage is high which has natural feedback loops built into health bars that are designed to feel great in a Pavlovian sense.

ADCs add needed structure and varying target desirability to a team fight, and allow other roles to take a position to protect the QB/set up a run/etc. I think some circumvent good play by lacking weaknesses (overtuned Vayne also comes to mind when that's a thing), but I think good ADC's enrich the game.


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ProfDrDeath

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyrgos View Post
Jinx - extreme lack of mobility.

Lucian - chugs mana.
Jinx - AoE crits with 10% bonus damage, lots of utility, tons of damage. And, extreme lack of mobility would be Ashe or Kog. Jinx passive gives her more than enough mobility.

Lucian - Doesn't seem to stop him...


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-30-2014
3 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worst Riven EUNA View Post
I like how the moment Morello wrote that last sentence, half the posters freaked out about Shyvana.

I think that shows how much the community trusts Riot to "balance" a champion upon deciding to alter their kit.
You shouldn't trust us to keep things intact when they invalidate a number of more rich or interactive options. I think we've earned that reputation fairly.


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Croanin

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're speaking to a rotating wall of hard counters, which is actually very unhealthy. Jinx and Lucian are overtuned ADCs that lack clear weaknesses and overshadow characters who have them.

All good fighters' weaknesses are "some other fighter." I think Mundo is VERY salvagable with balance updates to give him play (he's just old), but Shyvana....
Shyvana can be saved I think, she does exactly what she used to before her changes. Her dragon form makes her way too tanky, you might want to consider either lowering it's duration or making the boosted stats she recieves diminish overtime. Her durability puts the likes of Garen to shame while rivaling Udyr's yet she's less kitable with both of them with more consistent damage.


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Gorsz

Member

01-30-2014

@Morello


Why you're here could you please comment on the state of Teemo's mushrooms because I and many people feel they lack sufficient counter play.


Is this even on Riots agenda, or do we have to continue to suffer from lack of counter play options?


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INyuuI

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You shouldn't trust us to keep things intact when they invalidate a number of more rich or interactive options. I think we've earned that reputation fairly.
Poor Shyv. She didn't ask for this :c