What we expected when Riot said "Support Utility will scale with AP"

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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
I I really don't see how anyone can argue that supports were in a better position before than they are now. They had very little gold, were ward mules and relied on extremely over-tuned kits to get anything done, consequently they were nerfed whenever they got "too good."


Because that old "ward mule" and "over tuned kits" was what made them good and actually resulted in subtleties in regards to the position. Now most of those subtleties are gone, we can't control the vision game like we used to, our early game is pathetic if you are not part of the unholy trinity, and while I can play circles around 90% of the Thresh/Leona/Annies I see in bot lane with Karma/Sona/Lulu/Janna/etc I know all it takes no matter how far ahead we have gotten is for them to land 1 hook/zenith blade/tibbers stun and everything I had done until that point just went out the window as I won't have the power to save my adc from it and the damage will easily make up for any gab that has developed.

That isn't balanced, it isn't healthy and it sure as hell isn't fun knowing that no matter how damn good you are 1 slip up THAT YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO MAKE, will completely evaporate all you hard work in the blink of an eye.

I'll put it this way. I have a coach who I was recently talking to after I had my Karma binge and was all excited. He knows I play a lot of Karma/Sona/Janna/Nami/etc and very little Leona/Thresh/Annie. He commented about just how much better my ranking would be if I played the "good" champions instead of always forcing myself to be the better player by playing weaker supports. Those supports have the subtleties you mentioned but even when you master then it rarely if ever matters when you are playing against someone who is stacked from the start.


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by SmokingPuffin View Post

It may be that it's a better idea to balance the champions around the masteries, rather than the other way around.
Considering Leona wasn't a problem, along with a handful of other champions (Nasus, Shyvana) before the new tank masteries were shipped, I'd say let's look at those first.


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Sefam

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Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Because that old "ward mule" and "over tuned kits" was what made them good and actually resulted in subtleties in regards to the position. Now most of those subtleties are gone, we can't control the vision game like we used to, our early game is pathetic if you are not part of the unholy trinity, and while I can play circles around 90% of the Thresh/Leona/Annies I see in bot lane with Karma/Sona/Lulu/Janna/etc I know all it takes no matter how far ahead we have gotten is for them to land 1 hook/zenith blade/tibbers stun and everything I had done until that point just went out the window as I won't have the power to save my adc from it and the damage will easily make up for any gab that has developed.

That isn't balanced, it isn't healthy and it sure as hell isn't fun knowing that no matter how damn good you are 1 slip up THAT YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO MAKE, will completely evaporate all you hard work in the blink of an eye.

I'll put it this way. I have a coach who I was recently talking to after I had my Karma binge and was all excited. He knows I play a lot of Karma/Sona/Janna/Nami/etc and very little Leona/Thresh/Annie. He commented about just how much better my ranking would be if I played the "good" champions instead of always forcing myself to be the better player by playing weaker supports. Those supports have the subtleties you mentioned but even when you master then it rarely if ever matters when you are playing against someone who is stacked from the start.
TL;DR Playing the weaker supports is now a handicap, because the stronger supports make a huge effort vain by pressing one button.

Hell, playing support/ADC is a handicap right now considering the meta.


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Because that old "ward mule" and "over tuned kits" was what made them good and actually resulted in subtleties in regards to the position. Now most of those subtleties are gone, we can't control the vision game like we used to, our early game is pathetic if you are not part of the unholy trinity, and while I can play circles around 90% of the Thresh/Leona/Annies I see in bot lane with Karma/Sona/Lulu/Janna/etc I know all it takes no matter how far ahead we have gotten is for them to land 1 hook/zenith blade/tibbers stun and everything I had done until that point just went out the window as I won't have the power to save my adc from it and the damage will easily make up for any gab that has developed.

That isn't balanced, it isn't healthy
and it sure as hell isn't fun knowing that no matter how damn good you are 1 slip up THAT YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO MAKE, will completely evaporate all you hard work in the blink of an eye.
So in order for Supports to actually, you know, be any good at all in any situation, they have to sacrifice having an actual game with real effects outside of lane and warding. Their kits need to be tuned to the extent that a slight adjustment can throw them wildly out of synch with the current game (nerf/buff) and they have to blow all their earnings on nanny vision and you don't consider that bad balance or unhealthy?


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
So in order for Supports to actually, you know, be any good at all in any situation, they have to sacrifice having an actual game with real effects outside of lane and warding. Their kits need to be tuned to the extent that a slight adjustment can throw them wildly out of synch with the current game (nerf/buff) and they have to blow all their earnings on nanny vision and you don't consider that bad balance or unhealthy?


Not at all. They are working to accomplish one of if not the most important objective, vision control, they are able to properly defend and feed their adc so they can reach their hypercarry status, and while their damage is irrelevant their end game utility is game breaking enough to completely decide fights. What more could you of asked for in terms of a roles who's strengths are suppose to be subtle instead of in your face?


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mertatron

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
Again, the community doesn't understand the subtitles of utility.

Most of the newer (and reworked) supports lost very little and gained much, Soraka and Janna are the only ones who really suffered.

Utility support is still incredibly strong, but most of us simply are blinded by our current situation to see it.

I agree and disagree. supports overall gained much coz now they've got more gold. so more items .. so more impact. see for leona .. she can build a lot tankier now and be a real tank.

but I disagree coz most supports ... to have scaling on their utility .. got their base utility (slow, mr shred, ms boost and so on) scale down. so supports get better utility ONLY IF they build AP. And how many supports build AP ???

so even if .. on paper they gained much ... on live, they lost a bit compared to an annie or a thresh who got no change or leona who get tankier.

when u need 200 AP to reach your old utility while thresh stayed the same ... and u just can't build AP ... then you're screwed .. also because tank items and much better on tanks than support ... a tanky soraka will still be a lot squishier than a tanky leona (because of base stats, damage and ratios)


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
Not at all. They are working to accomplish one of if not the most important objective, vision control, they are able to properly defend and feed their adc so they can reach their hypercarry status, and while their damage is irrelevant their end game utility is game breaking enough to completely decide fights. What more could you of asked for in terms of a roles who's strengths are suppose to be subtle instead of in your face?
Yet time and again it has been stated that vision is and should be a team effort.

And most of that utility is still there, more so with AP (no, 100 AP is not that much). Like I said, if all they were good for was vision and having overloaded kits, I'd much rather them just fix Annie and masteries and leave them as is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mertatron View Post
when u need 200 AP to reach your old utility while thresh stayed the same
But your Damage overall has increased and so has your Aura/Active count.

At this point it's a numbers game, which isn't hard to solve at all.


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danorth the sly

Senior Member

01-30-2014

what ever happend to nunu support?


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mertatron

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post

But your Damage overall has increased and so has your Aura/Active count.

At this point it's a numbers game, which isn't hard to solve at all.
yeah .. the damage is better ONLY IF U BUILD AP. but if u want to survive an annie burst + stun + her ADC ... u don't build 200 AP, u build HP, armor, MR

so that's why I say I agree and disagree .. on paper they gained much ... more scaling and more money to by items. on game they build tanky + CDR so the only "support" who were buffed are taric and leona coz they have HP, armor, mr scaling.

for exemple sona ... she her damage stayed the same and her utility is a bit lower than in S3 if she builds no AP. for janna, even her tornado damage got lowered, and and speed boost/ slow is lower too if u don't build AP.

and at the end of the day, all they AP ratios are too low to really be that meaningfull.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofSFL View Post
Yet time and again it has been stated that vision is and should be a team effort.

And most of that utility is still there, more so with AP (no, 100 AP is not that much). Like I said, if all they were good for was vision and having overloaded kits, I'd much rather them just fix Annie and masteries and leave them as is.


This is because you don't understand what subtle actually is. You, like most others, want that immediate impact to see the high damage or the crawling slow. You don't want the unoffical assist when you team caught one of the enemy because of your ward coverage. You don't have the appreciation for knowing that your tryn/jax/zed/etc can split push safelty because of wards you provided, or your team successfully baited baron because you fully controlled vision.

You and me remind me of a scene from Indiana Jones. I was the guy who trained for years became a master of the sword, understood its finess and could best anyone with ease. You are just the random guy who pulls a gun and thinks he's awesome. If you really understood what being subtle was you would be just against these changes as many of us have been.