Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Suda

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.

yea you guys forgot to nurf her a new skin just came out with riven LOL


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Phlogosis

Member

01-29-2014

I don't know if my opinion matters, especially since it goes against the Almighty Red, but here goes:

I like assassin Diana. The moon does not imply tankyness to me. I think thematically, Sun Tank and Moon Assassin work better than Sun Tank and Moon Fighter, because they counter each other.

In terms of actual gameplay, I'd like to see Diana become a melee carry in the same vein as Jax. She's already got a great setup for extreme dueling, and high numbers for damage. I don't see why Jax is okay and Diana is not. Maybe W should change to a physical shield (because 1sts are great) and she could be like an Anti-Jax. I actually really like this.

Can Diana be an anti-carry fighter who specializes in fighting physical damage dealing champions? Targeted at killing ADC's and be weak to other mages? That'd be pretty great and ironic because she's the heretic, killing the mainstay of the meta...

edit: added brain to equation


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Mysnomer

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then[sic] getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.
I know, right? If there's one thing I think is "bull****," it's getting burst to death when I pick the squishiest character class in the game. I mean, why should you be able to eliminate them in a matter of seconds? It's not like the dynamic of the team is centered around protecting and assisting them. It's much more fair to make her get in an auto-attack fight with the class that is specialized to have the most rapid and devastating attacks, which are also their source of sustain (literally bringing a knife to a gun fight). This is especially great because I want there to be even less of a reason to buy that vestigial Linken's Sphere item, what was it called? Beaver's Tail? Bridal Veil? Something like that.

What's that, you're talking about changing the dynamic of her role up completely, so my complaints are irrelevant? You mean she's not a suicidal zealot hellbent on diving to savagely rip out the heart of the enemy team? THEN IT'S NOT F***ING DIANA, IS IT!? You want to turn her into a tanky fighter- oh, you mean just like Leona, if Leona had DPS? With the same itemization as joke AP Leona builds? Instead of being a dark inversion of Leona, you'll just make her to be a damage oriented Leona? Way to miss the point of meaningful design.


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Krshna

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Whatever you're going to do, get on it! Haha. I don't really care how you fix her, but I just shelled our real world money for the skin, as did many of us, I'm sure.

Prove to us that it was worth it!


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Diana just needs some increased damage on her q and her last nerfs need to be reverted!


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

01-30-2014
7 of 19 Riot Posts

Vesh plz


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Vesh plz
Welcome back!


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Don Fabuloso

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Rito pls


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-30-2014
8 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spagyrist View Post
With respect to improving Diana's fighter cred, how about making W scale, not with health, but with attack speed? Here's what I'm thinking:

In order for Diana to use her shield she needs to build up orb charges, which she acquires through auto-attacks: say two AAs per orb, up to a maximum of 3 orbs. With zero charges, W is disabled - but the ability can be activated with 1, 2, or 3 stored charges. The strength and damage of her shield is proportional to the number of stored orbs - so a 3 orb shield is three times stronger than a one orb shield. To work in a balanced manner, orb charges will probably have to decay out of combat.
There are a lot of clever ways to make her W synergize with her autoattacks. This is definitely one way to do that, although probably not the cleanest solution. I definitely see value in your goal though and it's a (general) direction that I think is definitely worth considering.


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Lans1ing

Senior Member

01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
There are a lot of clever ways to make her W synergize with her autoattacks. This is definitely one way to do that, although probably not the cleanest solution. I definitely see value in your goal though and it's a (general) direction that I think is definitely worth considering.
Vesh we need an ETA on her fix. Its been a year and we are very very sad that nothing has been done yet!!