Can we talk about balancing priority?

First Riot Post
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Maulkrieg

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

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Originally Posted by PhailRaptor View Post
The way I look at it is that they should alternate between the types of projects. Set up a board or box or something on which the champions/item sets/whatever that need short term work. After someone finishes a Passion project, they go to the board, look at what's there, and pick something to work on and sign it out. You then set up a ratio between "needs work" and "passion" projects, for example each individual has to work on 2 "needs work" projects before they can start another "passion" project. What ever ratio between the 2, but the point is people still get to do things they want to do, but the things that don't specifically tickle anyone's fancy still get done.


I've always thought Lifesteal and Spell Vamp should be bound to damage types, rather than auto-attack versus button press. If it deals physical damage, it should benefit Lifesteal. If it does magic damage, it should benefit Spell Vamp. This lets mages have Spell Vamp items that are actually good for them, without AD Casters abusing them to the Void and back to trample anything else. Under those conditions it might be possible for Spell Vamp to mean something for people not Morde and Vlad.
I feel like if they were to rework sustain champs and SV, they could do-away with things, like the healing on Vlad (or other problem champs), in exchange for upping his damage/improving CDs slightly early game. If you want early sustain, SV quints might actually be useful. In return, give champs that are intended to benefit greatly from sustain clauses on their skills that:

A) Make them benefit more from SV

B) Remove penalties to SV

C) Gain penalties to SV

This way you can actually balance SV to be an actual stat, similar to lifesteal, that doesn't include a slew of abuse cases.

Currently, in optimal non-abuse cases (say Cass) you SV less with SV per hit (on average) AND per second than ADCs, since there is no crit for spells. In addition, CDR does not improve cast animation, so spells remain as slow as ever, scaling only with AP/CDR , while autos continues to scale on 3 dimensions outside of lifesteal, while lifesteal is potent all game long due to the spammability.

Also, the availability of SV now compared to lifesteal is pitiful, especially since one of the items is only ever used on Morde, Jax, and Akali. Its pretty rare on Jax these days, mind you.


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Maulkrieg

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01-29-2014

Speaking of reworking SV, I'm surprised they haven't tried getting SV to only scale on bonus AP, rather than base damages, as that would make it much weaker on champs like Vlad and allow them to remove the AOE/DoT restrictions for the most part.


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jmlinden7

Senior Member

01-29-2014

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Originally Posted by Maulkrieg View Post
Why is MF getting touch-ups when she's in an okay spot already?

We have champions like Graves, Kog, and Urgot that haven't seen consistent play in a long, long time. Why haven't they gotten any attention from Riot?


I feel like Riot tries to put A- champs up where the A champs are, while only nerfing A+ champs, when what really needs to happen is all of A- through A+ is nerfed to around B level so more than 1/6 of the cast is reliable.
Actually, I think all 3 of those champions have seen play more recently than MF. Graves was played in OGN Winter, Urgot was just played in NA LCS, and Kog was played at worlds.


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Maulkrieg

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01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by jmlinden7 View Post
Actually, I think all 3 of those champions have seen play more recently than MF. Graves was played in OGN Winter, Urgot was just played in NA LCS, and Kog was played at worlds.
Worlds was quite some time ago, and Urgot and Graves weren't picked all that often even if they were picked once.

Since when does a single pick invalidate seeing lack of play?

Lack means less than optimal; not absolutely none.


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SlumlordThanatos

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's something we're actively working on fixing. We've also added some more manpower to the team so we can get more done, too!
Good to hear it.

Now I'd like to see you working towards retaining that talent you've hired.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-30-2014
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maulkrieg View Post
A great answer, but in a way it doesn't sit well with me.

Shouldn't the team be partitioned, with a select few working on a passion project, while the rest work on the current state of A- to A+ champions, relative to B champions, or is that basically impossible due to them working with upcoming champion reworks?


I'd just feel better if some champions that are never mentioned by Riot got some attention. If you want my honest opinion, only seeing 20 or so champions ever mentioned outside of reworks is disheartening and making me lose faith in the future of the game.


Also, while you're here, would you mind talking about spellvamp with me? I have a couple of inquiries about your thoughts on its current state and what you want it to be.
Some of it is that many champions can't be balanced without a rework - though I think many more than we focus on now could be. There's no world where Riven is in a good spot that's not total dominance. Same with Kassadin - too much reliability/lack of failure case/perfection results in pre-determined outcomes/overloaded with stats or tools on those champs to not have their balance results be binary or reliant on hard-counter trends.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-30-2014
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlumlordThanatos View Post
Good to hear it.

Now I'd like to see you working towards retaining that talent you've hired.
Hmm? We have extremely low turnover in design, or do you mean on the game health team specifically?


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UnderworldH4des

Senior Member

01-30-2014

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Originally Posted by Morello View Post
(nerfs due to pro play that needs to happen now, etc).
That explains why Kassadin is getting outright nerfs instead of also getting huge compensation buffs while being around 100% pick and ban rate in pro play and around 91% solo q.


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Maulkrieg

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01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Some of it is that many champions can't be balanced without a rework - though I think many more than we focus on now could be. There's no world where Riven is in a good spot that's not total dominance. Same with Kassadin - too much reliability/lack of failure case/perfection results in pre-determined outcomes/overloaded with stats or tools on those champs to not have their balance results be binary or reliant on hard-counter trends.

What about entire stats/items that aren't seeing daylight outside of abuse cases? Any plans to address those?

What about specific item benefits that aren't accessible to a wide enough variety of champions? Grievous wounds against Mundo, splitpush Trundle, etc, yet if you're a bruiser you have to build an ADC item that ADCs don't even need, due to range+damage advantage they have anyway?

I apologize if it sounds like I'm trying to harp on you; I'm genuinely curious, I swear!


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Bregan

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01-30-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Some of it is that many champions can't be balanced without a rework - though I think many more than we focus on now could be. There's no world where Riven is in a good spot that's not total dominance. Same with Kassadin - too much reliability/lack of failure case/perfection results in pre-determined outcomes/overloaded with stats or tools on those champs to not have their balance results be binary or reliant on hard-counter trends.
seriously, why is it that you guys acknowledge this sort of thing about champ kits/design WAY after they're out there, but you cant recognize this from the drawing room or internal playtesting? riot has had this problem since beta.