Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

First Riot Post
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Exponential

Junior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partholonian View Post
I think the problem is the QRR burst. Someone upthread suggested that she should get a different reward out of QR besides a reset -- how about a steroid? Something that would make her more survivable and help her proc her passive (which to me feels more character defining than QRR, partly because you have it right from the start) and have a sustained presence. One gap closer should be enough if she's not too squishy.

This thread shows though that some people like her as an assassin, so no matter what direction you go with her, some people will be disappointed.

I like the QRR game-play because of the decisions it forces you to make as well as the incredibly long range dives it opens up. I love the ability to QR to a target only to R again to reach that adc that thought they were safe in the back, or the low-health champ that thought they made a clean-escape.

The problem with the QRR is how much burst it has and how easy it is to cc/kill Diana who has no escapes. Someone said it already, currently with the Burst dmg game-play Q might as well say if Q lands Diana and her target die. That is not fun.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
The shield scaling with health instead of AP has been suggested a couple of times. I agree with the goal, but it's hard to say if a specific solution will actually work when it's on paper.

edit: removed analogy that wasn't very strong.
I don't understand the hesitance to experiment with this on the PBE. Sometimes paper won't tell the whole story anyways.
My suggestions:
1) buff her base attack speed
2) make her on-hit ability scale with her E instead of her level
3) remove the CD reset on her R because...
4) make her W slow enemies that have moonlight on them and...
5) make her E pull enemies that have moonlight from farther away.


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-29-2014
6 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialist Nips View Post
I personally am fine with making Diana more of a DPS fighter rather than burst Assassin, on the condition that her kit, besides the numbers, be kept almost exactly as it is now. She has one of the most fun high risk, high reward kits in the game and I don't wan't that to change. So here is my idea: Add an armor and MR passive to moonfall, something like 5 Armor and MR per point in the skill. Then lower her ratios and possibly some of her base damages across the board. This makes the full AP assassin itemization significantly less appealing as you will have to be extremely fed to one shot a squishy. It makes a balanced build of both offensive and defensive items more attractive. Something along the lines of Sunfire, Zhonya's, Abyssal, Banshee's, Randuin's, and situationa; tier 2 boots. However if we lower her damages across the board she will desperately need mana cost buffs, so obviously there are alot of numbers that will go into balancing this. Overall however I think this would give her a nice balance of DPS and tankiness while still being high risk and high reward, and removing her ability to instagib.
TL;DR: Lower her damage, lower mana costs, give her an armor and MR passive on Moonfall, making her a DPS bruiser rather than a burst assassin.

I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

01-29-2014

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Originally Posted by Neo Cyrus View Post
How many pages have a written about this. I don't even want to talk about it I'm so sick of it.

0.1 AP added. Easy band-aid fix, baddies still get dumpstered due to her pathetic base damages, but gives her something late game. That and a skill for E to replace the nothing she has now. That's all that would be necessary.
Don't be a ******. People love using her and care about her state so they want something done. I see nothing wrong with this. It's just like protesting to get laws or bills changed in the goverment. If you dont like seeing this stay away from it.


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CragBlade

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.
I think you just need to put more emphasis on her entire kit being used together and not just her Q+R destroying people damage wise.

More emphasis on her W. Make her E actually feel better and function better because it honestly feels somewhat useless most of the time. Mostly feels good on paper but not in actuality.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.

Thank you. I am perfectly okay with tweaking. But my god, all these suggestions about massive nerfs to her q and r. And massive buffs to passive and shield......forces her tank. You cannot design a champion that is capable of any burst, if their main source of damage, is melee damage.

You will see sunfire cape Diana.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CragBlade View Post
I think you just need to put more emphasis on her entire kit being used together and not just her Q+R destroying people damage wise.

More emphasis on her W. Make her E actually feel better and function better because it honestly feels somewhat useless most of the time. Mostly feels good on paper but not in actuality.

Emphasis on E would be nice. Maybe I'm just bad.....but I don't even get my e until like level 8 or so. Just like I don't get my Ezreal w until like....whenever I have to. That spell should feel better.


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wolferer

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Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alorasence View Post
What about Diana makes her seem like she should be a bruiser to you? I'm not trying to be mean, but she has an 800+ range gap close ultimate. She is desinged to infiltrate the backline of an enemy team, and force either massive peel because of her damage, or force a fight.

I sincerely don't understand an argument for her to become a fighter. She has never served that role. She was never designed for that role. I, respectfully, don't really care if you find her playstyle interesting. Don't play her if you don't like her.

How would you feel if I told you that I don't like the way your main works and suggested changing the role of your main? What if I said, "I don't think Ezreal is an interesting ADC because Vayne scales better and Caitlyn has better range. Ezreal should be a support."

tldr; I happen to enjoy her design. I want her to be better at it.
It's always the risk with changing how a champion works that you upset someone who liked them the way they were. Pretty much every rework that comes around, there's someone posting on Reddit that the champion is worse post-rework than before (just today we had someone post about skarner). So, to establish first, it's impossible for everyone to be happy with a change. Thus, a requirement for making a change is not for everyone to be happy with it.

I didn't restate the points that were discussed earlier in this thread. In his first post in this thread, Vesh comes to a similar conclusion, that Diana's fighter/bruiser aspects are more compelling than her assassin aspects (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...77595#44777595). An assassin Diana hits a Q, then uses her targeted ult twice, and gets a little more damage in with w and some autos. If this is enough damage, he target dies, if it doesn't, then she is way out of position and can't do anything other than walk away.

My comparisons were Fizz and Akali. Fizz has choices to make when he is trying to assassinate someone. These include when he uses his Playful/Trickster, whether he ults from a long range or tries to gap close first, and whether he uses his Q when his target gains distance to keep up, or when he is close to his target to get some distance and wait for cooldowns while kiting.

Akali can lay down her shroud and hide while waiting for Q cooldowns, and can kite back and forth more due to having 3 (or 4 in a long fight) ult activations. She can also do plays like land a ranged Q, wait until it's almost off cooldown, then ult, proc Q, and get another Q in a short time (Q has 6 second cooldown at level 1, the proc lasts 6 seconds).

Diana can sort of do the Akali Q thing, but her window to do it is way worse. Moonlight lasts for 3 seconds, and Q is a 10 second cooldown at level 1, 6 at level 5. So even if you have 40% CDR, you're still looking at a 1-2 second wait depending on how tightly you time it. It basically boils down to, do you wait to QRQRR, or do you just QRR, and that's just a question of how much damage you did.

I'll also point out that it doesn't have to be black or white, fighter or assassin. Consider it more of a spectrum. There are fighters like Shen who tend to be tankier, then there's fighters like Jarvan who can imitate an assassin pretty darn well. Then there's assassins like Talon who burst and get out of dodge. I think Diana would be more interesting if she was an AP righter in the Jarvan area of the spectrum. You can build Jarvan with pure damage and EQR squishies to death. You can also build Jarvan tanky and enjoy fairly high damage and good team fight initiation and utility. I'd like to see Diana in that space, instead of being a burst caster who initiate only if she buys Zhonyas. The reason is that as an assassin, her play is too binary and forced her to be nerfed to the state she currently is in.

You are definitely correct that if people like Diana as she is, it may very well not be worth changing her. I was just throwing around some ideas. I think it'd be more valuable for you, and people like you who don't want Diana to change, to explain what exactly about her kit that you enjoy. She could still be the champion you love even if she is adjusted a bit, and if you make it clear what it is you love about her, those things may not be the ones that are adjusted.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes.
Well then you may be at an impasse: The only glass cannon melee in League are pretty much assassins.

So if you don't want her to be an assassin, there is only one thing left in League for melee: Tanky DPS

And what is AP Tanky DPS? Zac. Shen. Maokai. Leona. Amumu.

Tanks.

So that's what Diana's going to be then.

And all of those other champions will be better than her at it.


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.
What is your opinion on the ult reset? Do you think it needs to go or does it still have room to stay? How would go about approaching into making her into more of a dps type?