Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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atresj

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.
This can be dealt with differently, though. While I do realize my idea do not hit the nail on its head it may help balancing Diana a bit.

We all agree that she's not an assassin (as you too pointed out in your post), she's something like a tanky-bursting frontliner. Because of that her shield should scale with something different than her damaging abilites for the reasons mentioned earlier.

Why not just make her shield scale with bonus health and make her passive scale damage with bonus health too? This way we'll encourage Diana's to actually build more tanky while still making her a threat to the enemy team.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-29-2014

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Originally Posted by wolferer View Post
I find Diana to be most interesting as an AP bruiser, since that is a niche that isn't really filled well currently. As an assassin, I think Akali is more interesting with her Twilight Shroud, and Fizz is more interesting with his untargetability and long range skill shot disable.

As pointed out, adding defensive itemization scaling on her shield amount (or even damage) would be a good start. You could buff bruiser Diana by giving her more value out of defensive itemization. This would also kind of parallel Leona's design, which is kind of cool.

To improve her capability as an initiator, why not have her E leave a lingering symbol on the ground that slows all enemies who walk into it, instead of just slowing enemies caught in the initial blast? That way, if you initiate on a lone target, you still have a zone-control aspect when his teammates come to stop you. This would make the skill a good bit more powerful, and add use cases such as protecting a retreat or blocking off a path. This would make this skill a good bit more powerful, but I think that it's a good place to spend her power budget because it's one of her more unique kit aspects, and of course it features her iconic symbol. If the goal is to buff bruiser Diana without buffing assassin Diana, this seems like a good place to shift some power.

To reduce Diana's burst, you could adjust her ult to not be a full cooldown refresh when proccing moonlight. Have the cooldown line up with Q's cooldown if you proc, and be about 2x Q's cooldown if you miss. It'll play naturally with your Q and R coming up around the same time, won't punish you too hard if you really want to R in without a Q for a good initiate, and will remove the QRR use case that is taking up a lot of her power budget.

Alternative idea, what if instead of giving you another shield when the W orbs are used up, it gave you an attack speed boost, instead of the flat hidden boost in her passive? Now assassin Diana doesn't get as much free defense, and bruiser Diana gets a good burst of sustained damage if she can survive a toe-to-toe skirmish.

tl;dr -- QRR isn't very exciting, interesting, or provide much gameplay. Enable Diana's passive a bit more. Make Diana's E have a bigger impact and give it more use cases.

What about Diana makes her seem like she should be a bruiser to you? I'm not trying to be mean, but she has an 800+ range gap close ultimate. She is desinged to infiltrate the backline of an enemy team, and force either massive peel because of her damage, or force a fight.

I sincerely don't understand an argument for her to become a fighter. She has never served that role. She was never designed for that role. I, respectfully, don't really care if you find her playstyle interesting. Don't play her if you don't like her.

How would you feel if I told you that I don't like the way your main works and suggested changing the role of your main? What if I said, "I don't think Ezreal is an interesting ADC because Vayne scales better and Caitlyn has better range. Ezreal should be a support."

tldr; I happen to enjoy her design. I want her to be better at it.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-29-2014

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Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
When given the tools to jump a squishy, Diana isn't going to make 4 other pit stops on the way there, she is going to go kill the target she can kill immediately. By the time that target is dead, it's not really important if other targets have moonlight on them because her Q is on such a short cooldown. Plus if moonlight lasted long enough for this to relevant the enemy team would basically be permanently revealed and there's a ton of power in the fact that it grants sight..
Well Vesh, this isn't entirely true.
Because with the ability for multiple Moonlight jumps, Diana could get from one intermediary enemy to her intended target.

And then perhaps out again, maybe if she just wanted to 'chunk' her target.

Or perhaps players may use Diana as a multi-dashing AoE champion, rather than a single target assassin? A gameplay choice? Moonlight could likely retain its normal timer for that.

But as for the option of Moonlight revealing the enemy for a long time? GOOD.

Why can't Diana be chosen for her vision granting? Why can't that be part of her power?

See because when players may be going through looking for reasons to choose a champion, and they say "I want an assassin" or "I want an initiator"-- if Diana is just following the standard formula for either of those Roles, well Kha'Zix and Zac will probably be smiling back at her.

But if she had something like "Always Grants Titanic Vision Of Everyone" all over her, even if she did less damage, or was less tanky, she might have a unique reason for being chosen.


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-29-2014
5 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by atresj View Post
This can be dealt with differently, though. While I do realize my idea do not hit the nail on its head it may help balancing Diana a bit.

We all agree that she's not an assassin (as you too pointed out in your post), she's something like a tanky-bursting frontliner. Because of that her shield should scale with something different than her damaging abilites for the reasons mentioned earlier.

Why not just make her shield scale with bonus health and make her passive scale damage with bonus health too? This way we'll encourage Diana's to actually build more tanky while still making her a threat to the enemy team.

The shield scaling with health instead of AP has been suggested a couple of times. I agree with the goal, but it's hard to say if a specific solution will actually work when it's on paper.

edit: removed analogy that wasn't very strong.


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Alorasence

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
The shield scaling with health instead of AP has been suggested a couple of times. I agree with the goal, but it's hard to say if a specific solution will actually work when it's on paper.

It's not about "balancing" her in the sense of giving her a 50/50 winrate. I could make a champion whose passive is that at the start of the game he has a 50% chance of winning immediately and a 50% of loosing immediately and that would have a 50% winrate. Obviously, that champion doesn't sound very healthy for a game. Any changes directed at Diana need to have the right goal in mind - not a perfect 50% win rate but a healthy play pattern that we can tune appropriately in the right ways.
He posted, "We all agree that she's not an assassin (as you too pointed out in your post), she's something like a tanky-bursting frontliner."

Who is the "we" who have decided she's a frontliner? Name a front liner with an 850 range gap close and I'll name an assassin. Maybe I'll name a tanky assassin. But please stop refering to her as you would refer to Xin Zhao or Jarvan.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
The shield scaling with health instead of AP has been suggested a couple of times. I agree with the goal, but it's hard to say if a specific solution will actually work when it's on paper.

It's not about "balancing" her in the sense of giving her a 50/50 winrate. I could make a champion whose passive is that at the start of the game he has a 50% chance of winning immediately and a 50% of loosing immediately and that would have a 50% winrate. Obviously, that champion doesn't sound very healthy for a game. Any changes directed at Diana need to have the right goal in mind - not a perfect 50% win rate but a healthy play pattern that we can tune appropriately in the right ways.
In Diana's case, though, Vesh, we have to give up either Assassin Diana or Fighter Diana. Those two roles are mutal exclusive, any time they've been mixed in League they've been broken and unhealthy.

I would personally prefer Fighter Diana. It's fun to instakill someone, but AP Bruisers aren't a very common thing, Diana's passive is just so much cooler than QRR, and it makes more sense visually.

What about making her shield scale with health, and instead of Lunar Rush refresing when she hits a target with Moonlight, it grants her bonus attack speed, and the cooldown of Lunar Rush is reduced by attacking. She can go in with R directly, sacrifice AS to leap onto her target NOW, or she can use QR, setting up an opening to go into things, and be able to deal consistent damage and to R again when she needs to to stick to her target.


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atresj

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
The shield scaling with health instead of AP has been suggested a couple of times. I agree with the goal, but it's hard to say if a specific solution will actually work when it's on paper.

It's not about "balancing" her in the sense of giving her a 50/50 winrate. I could make a champion whose passive is that at the start of the game he has a 50% chance of winning immediately and a 50% of loosing immediately and that would have a 50% winrate. Obviously, that champion doesn't sound very healthy for a game. Any changes directed at Diana need to have the right goal in mind - not a perfect 50% win rate but a healthy play pattern that we can tune appropriately in the right ways.
I like your mindset.

How about that then: make Q highlight entire area instead of only champions hit and make her ultimate so that she could jump to any area within the highlighted area. Everything else would stay the same - ulti would still consume all the moonlights but if it was used on the ground instead of on an enemy champion, the cooldown wouldn't be refreshed (also we'd have to increase this ultimate's basic cooldown or just make something like "This skill's cooldown is tripled if no enemy was hit." so that she would actually be a gankable champion).


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PHDancake

Junior Member

01-29-2014

I think it'd be really cool if Diana's Q cooldown was increased fairly significantly, but you made her passive proc a cooldown reduction of like 2-3 seconds if a champion is hit by the third attack. Maybe 2 seconds per champion hit, that would be really cool.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
The shield scaling with health instead of AP has been suggested a couple of times. I agree with the goal, but it's hard to say if a specific solution will actually work when it's on paper.
This pushes her way too far into Tank Land. Tank Land is bad for Diana, because when they called her a heretic, they died: They didn't get annoyed by plinking away at her armor until they cried themselves a surrender.

So consider the primary design goals here:

Diana wants AP. She wants to whack things.

See, that makes her a 'melee carry', but those don't exist in League of Legends. Hence perhaps the problem.

So how can Diana actually in fact be a 'melee carry' and not explode?

League's past solution has been "here, have this Sunfire Cape". This is obviously bad for Diana.

"But if she builds AP she just assassinates someone?" No. This is what you need to change.

Take a good long stare at Jax, then remove Diana's initial burst in favor of stacking damage.

That's how you make a potential carry who isn't really an assassin in disguise (unfortunately like Fiora, or perhaps every other 'melee carry').

"But she needs to survive to stack damage, right?" Right. Defensive steroids.

I'm not joking: Moonfall makes her Invulnerable if it hits an enemy champion.

How is that balanced? Well she doesn't have initial "blam" damage, she has to stack it.

Which Titanic Defensive Steroids buy her time to do.


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Exponential

Junior Member

01-29-2014

I"m so excited there is a Diana discussion that I logged in to make my first post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I feel that it would be even cooler if she started off in a more "initiator" type role with her R->E and maybe zhonyas that set up her team to follow up with additional CC and then transitioned into fighter mode after. Diana feels really good when she's hitting people with her epic moonblade.

With the way she functions currently, her assassin pattern would basically just degenerate to an even more bursty Akali with less options and less points of mastery.

This is exactly why I like playing Diana and I'd love it if this style of play was accentuated. Playing her as a burst assassin feels exactly like playing a weaker Akali. I think lowering the damage on her Q-R-R burst and increasing temporary durability (scaling shield?) and sustained damage (better attack speed) would help carve out a role for her. I see this role being an offensive minded, hyper-aggressive, due to no escaping after you commit, AP fighter/initiator.

Pushing her into a fighter role would open-up some cool options to improve her jungling as well. Maybe something like reducing the cd on her shield when she lands a basic attack. This would improve her situation-based durability (if you can kite her she can't recast shield)and give her some extra sustain in the jungle so she can farm her way to 6 faster.