Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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aceofsween

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.
(Full Disclosure: I play Diana as a Jungler)
Vesh, I've got a few ideas to bounce off you...

If you want to preserve Diana as an assassin, you could make her R a straight line skillshot dash. It would give her a way to exit a fight after killing someone and has a unique reset condition that distinquishes it from say Kha'zix's evolved leap. That would probably need a complete rework/removal of her shield to go along with it, however.

Personally, I don't like this because it diminishes the importance of her passive, which I think is one of her strongest qualities. If you want to make her more of a bruiser, there needs to be some retooling of her damage and build patterns. Basically, reducing her AP ratios while increasing her persistent damage. I think the passive is a great source of sustained damage, the question is how to make this build pattern cohesive. Emphasizing the importance of her passive means keeping Nashor's apart of her build path, but I'm not sure if that item alone is enough to cary her sustained damage later into the game. Basically, I'm afraid she'd lose presence in a teamfight and just kinda exist in melee with minimal contributions.

Maybe that's okay though. The current iteration of her Moonfall has some massive disincentives for leveling. It's got a huge cooldown that doesn't come down much and the slow on it only gains 5% per rank. Maybe she doesn't need more teamfight presence if she can use her Moonfall more often with a greater impact. Is the trade off in personal damage enough to increase her syngergy with team fights? That's not a question I can answer.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggression View Post
I really don't care about number changes I don't dont want morello shoving his greasy face in here with his ideas on reducing ranges, Q speed and moonfall radius



I don't think there's anything wrong with diana and I like that she's one of the few champions left that hasn't been forced into one obvious role, which riot apparently thinks is necessary (but they don't 'enforce meta' hahahahaha)


as that stands I think your suggested changes are pretty good because they don't overall change much, if anything they make her better at what she's not as good at (sustained fighting) and worse at what she's accidentally better at (single target burst). This would mean you could itemize her for either one but not really both (you built deathcap DFG you're still going to 1 shot a carry but you wont be tanky like if you built hourglass and abyssal)

but seriously I don't think there are any required changes to diana, she's only 'not viable' because the game fotm ebbs and flows. katarina 'isnt viable' akali 'isnt viable' and yet both have seen LCS play. i'm sure diana will be used again by the end of the spring split. if scarra picks her up again and wins (dig op) i'm sure the forums will explode with crying.
Scarra actually requested buffs for her recently. I don't think he considers her strong enough to pick in competitive right now. Also I would rather it be Shiptur on her for reasons. :/


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King David

Senior Member

01-29-2014

While we're on the subject of Diana I am actually curious why her skin isn't limited and the other 2 are. Care to comment?

Nvm I found out.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by King David View Post
While we're on the subject of Diana I am actually curious why her skin isn't limited and the other 2 are. Care to comment?
Because she only has one other skin. Same reason the Vi and Zyra skins weren't limited if so remember correctly.


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-29-2014
2 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Honestly I forgot to mention that. As far as thematics go. It does not make much sense that Diana stops moving when using crescent strike. She is on a relentless path to bring justice and when I imagine her taking the Solari I don't imagine hesiation but rather slicing shieldjng and daahkng through the ranks.

Q is already an extremely reliable skillshot. it has a large width, moves very fast, and has an AoE explosion on the end. Making her not stop to cast it would accentuate this problem even more.

Thematics are important, but should not compromise gameplay.

(Part of the reason why the Q being so reliable isn't very good is because it enables her to go R->R right afterward extremely reliably to just kill someone)


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King David

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Because she only has one other skin. Same reason the Vi and Zyra skins weren't limited if so remember correctly.
Yes thanks you answered this on the thread I made tyvm ^^


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Gixia

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by King David View Post
While we're on the subject of Diana I am actually curious why her skin isn't limited and the other 2 are. Care to comment?

Nvm I found out.
If I had to guess, it'd probably be because Riven and Tryndamere already have multiple skins and Diana does not.

On topic, I would love to see Diana taken down more of an AP fighter path.


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-29-2014
3 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
And as well, there is room for 'transition gameplay', where she can start off a teamfight (for example) in 'fighter mode', but through the successful completion of combos ramp up her damage to that of an assassin.
I feel that it would be even cooler if she started off in a more "initiator" type role with her R->E and maybe zhonyas that set up her team to follow up with additional CC and then transitioned into fighter mode after. Diana feels really good when she's hitting people with her epic moonblade.

With the way she functions currently, her assassin pattern would basically just degenerate to an even more bursty Akali with less options and less points of mastery.


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SerBlaise

Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I feel that it would be even cooler if she started off in a more "initiator" type role with her R->E and maybe zhonyas that set up her team to follow up with additional CC and then transitioned into fighter mode after. Diana feels really good when she's hitting people with her epic moonblade.

With the way she functions currently, her assassin pattern would basically just degenerate to an even more bursty Akali with less options and less points of mastery.
Thank you for giving Diana some attention!

What are your thoughts on what has been suggested in a few other threads; that moonlight remain on other targets after an R-use-consumption?

As far as moving towards a fighter role, In loosing her damage dealing burst potential, would she gain sustain (Life steal or spell vamp)?


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Hexss

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Personally I feel riot thinks her E is better than it really is. The ability sounds ok on paper, but in reality it only offers a split second of CC and no damage whatsoever. Diana is not a tank. Having her initiate only to be blown up after hourglass feels really bad