Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

First Riot Post
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Blews

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Diana still continues to be one of my favourite champions, even after she fell out of favour.

That said, I entirely agree with you here.
Rather than give a summation of each point of agreement, I'm going to come off and say that this is a really well-written post and covers pretty much all of her issues here.

Bump, because I'd love to see more discussion on this.


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Phry

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.
If she gets put in more of the fighter role, I feel that a buff to her E is warranted.


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Aggression

Senior Member

01-29-2014

I really don't care about number changes I don't dont want morello shoving his greasy face in here with his ideas on reducing ranges, Q speed and moonfall radius



I don't think there's anything wrong with diana and I like that she's one of the few champions left that hasn't been forced into one obvious role, which riot apparently thinks is necessary (but they don't 'enforce meta' hahahahaha)


as that stands I think your suggested changes are pretty good because they don't overall change much, if anything they make her better at what she's not as good at (sustained fighting) and worse at what she's accidentally better at (single target burst). This would mean you could itemize her for either one but not really both (you built deathcap DFG you're still going to 1 shot a carry but you wont be tanky like if you built hourglass and abyssal)

but seriously I don't think there are any required changes to diana, she's only 'not viable' because the game fotm ebbs and flows. katarina 'isnt viable' akali 'isnt viable' and yet both have seen LCS play. i'm sure diana will be used again by the end of the spring split. if scarra picks her up again and wins (dig op) i'm sure the forums will explode with crying.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising.
This is something I've recommended a bit:

Taking the power out of the binary Q-R combo, and using Lunar Rush perhaps more as a mobility tool.

Potentially with different 'Brand-like' combos interwoven with the ability to reset Lunar Rush using them.

So Diana comes off as this tenacious and dogged fighter with a variety of tools perhaps through 'building' combos.

There is always the potential as well to allow itemization variance, such that she can build to be more of an assassin or more of a fighter.

And as well, there is room for 'transition gameplay', where she can start off a teamfight (for example) in 'fighter mode', but through the successful completion of combos ramp up her damage to that of an assassin.

Essentially, one remedy to "identity crisis" champions is to embrace both through player skill and items. Is Doombringer in Dota a Tank, Support, Carry, or Assassin? Answer: All of them, depending on how the player builds.

League should be balanced enough to do that, perhaps where you're not looking for "which champion is the most optimal assassin", and instead looking for "which champion's abilities are best for this game and how can I build to accentuate that".


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing.
So okay, as a tonesetting note: Q shouldn't interrupt her movement. She should be able to scythe people with moonlight as she runs.

Second, Q shouldn't be the only thing which applies Moonlight.

And third, she should be rewarded with durability for sticking to her opponents.

So consider Brand: He puts a debuff on people with his abilities. Then enemies with that debuff on them get added spell effects.

If Diana built moonlight stacks on her opponents, nice things could happen.

Diana's burst isn't that entertaining to play. It's a binary QRDead that Akali already has a much better monopoly on.

It's also an 'anti-pattern' with her Passive.

What's Diana's lore? Tenacity. Reveals. She's there to stay there and reveal the truth whether people like it or not. Her abilities should probably reflect that:

As an AP Fighter, she gets tools to cling to life, and build a cataclysmic revealing light upon her foes, whom she can follow into every dark corner they may hide.

So how to do this?

Shield resets are one way. Stacking damage-increase debuffs are another. Stacking attack speed bonuses on Moonlit targets may be another.

Potentially: If ability hits moonlit target, applies another stack of moonlight, gains additional effect.

If you really want to get out of your standard fare, you could go with the relatively new (in League) mechanic of Dota's Spectre: Diana now phases through terrain when following the Moonsilver Blade.

I believe honestly, in order for you to avoid troubles like this in the future, you perhaps need to make each champion have more highly distinct features. So it's not "I'd love to play Diana, but there are other assassins and fighters which just do everything she does better".


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Lesbian Diana

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Levelling up her E gives her passive spellvamp


it sounds really bad but I loved diana jungle when SotSW gave spellvamp because even though it's aoe her burst would still heal for ~200 and with the chaining qr and the sheild you could really stay alive long


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
This is something I've recommended a bit:

Taking the power out of the binary Q-R combo, and using Lunar Rush perhaps more as a mobility tool.

Potentially with different 'Brand-like' combos interwoven with the ability to reset Lunar Rush using them.

So Diana comes off as this tenacious and dogged fighter with a variety of tools perhaps through 'building' combos.

There is always the potential as well to allow itemization variance, such that she can build to be more of an assassin or more of a fighter.

And as well, there is room for 'transition gameplay', where she can start off a teamfight (for example) in 'fighter mode', but through the successful completion of combos ramp up her damage to that of an assassin.

Essentially, one remedy to "identity crisis" champions is to embrace both through player skill and items. Is Doombringer in Dota a Tank, Support, Carry, or Assassin? Answer: All of them, depending on how the player builds.

League should be balanced enough to do that, perhaps where you're not looking for "which champion is the most optimal assassin", and instead looking for "which champion's abilities are best for this game and how can I build to accentuate that".
I think her playstyle is good. Literally all she needs is a numbers tweak in her current state to make her good enough to actually see play. She was ignored during the assassin meta and I think maybe got played in two games at World's. I know Peke played her against Mineski but other than that I am not sure. I think her flexible nature is good but I am trying to do this on Riot's terms. I would like her to be an assassin as to mer they are the most fun to play hence why my favorite bruiser is Jarvan and I love glass cannon Jayce. However, that is another story and not what Riot seems to want out of Diana. I just hope that she is still viable as a "carry" champion and mot turned into a meatshield instead.


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GodBroJ

Senior Member

01-29-2014

why does Diana need buffs? i feel like i was the only who hated her when she was fotm she somewhat reminds of a xin or vi..she gets tanky and is really hard to kill but tends to fall of if your not getting fed in lane and her shield is annoying as **** -3-


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
So okay, as a tonesetting note: Q shouldn't interrupt her movement. She should be able to scythe people with moonlight as she runs.

Second, Q shouldn't be the only thing which applies Moonlight.

And third, she should be rewarded with durability for sticking to her opponents.

So consider Brand: He puts a debuff on people with his abilities. Then enemies with that debuff on them get added spell effects.

If Diana built moonlight stacks on her opponents, nice things could happen.

Diana's burst isn't that entertaining to play. It's a binary QRDead that Akali already has a much better monopoly on.

It's also an 'anti-pattern' with her Passive.

What's Diana's lore? Tenacity. Reveals. She's there to stay there and reveal the truth whether people like it or not. Her abilities should probably reflect that:

As an AP Fighter, she gets tools to cling to life, and build a cataclysmic revealing light upon her foes, whom she can follow into every dark corner they may hide.

So how to do this?

Shield resets are one way. Stacking damage-increase debuffs are another. Stacking attack speed bonuses on Moonlit targets may be another.

Potentially: If ability hits moonlit target, applies another stack of moonlight, gains additional effect.

If you really want to get out of your standard fare, you could go with the relatively new (in League) mechanic of Dota's Spectre: Diana now phases through terrain when following the Moonsilver Blade.

I believe honestly, in order for you to avoid troubles like this in the future, you perhaps need to make each champion have more highly distinct features. So it's not "I'd love to play Diana, but there are other assassins and fighters which just do everything she does better".
Honestly I forgot to mention that. As far as thematics go. It does not make much sense that Diana stops moving when using crescent strike. She is on a relentless path to bring justice and when I imagine her taking the Solari I don't imagine hesiation but rather slicing shieldjng and daahkng through the ranks.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodBroJ View Post
why does Diana need buffs? i feel like i was the only who hated her when she was fotm she somewhat reminds of a xin or vi..she gets tanky and is really hard to kill but tends to fall of if your not getting fed in lane and her shield is annoying as **** -3-
Read the OP. Basically everything you can do with her you can name quite a few champs that do it better. There are far more annoying champions in this game than her believe that.