Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please.

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Punish This Hole

Senior Member

01-28-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Don't get me wrong if you looking my main you will see I had a seventy percent win rate on hr last season so she can be strong. Its just I notice her being weaker when I am netting some of the same success on champs I am less comfortable with. She just needs a slight damage increase in her current state and she will be perfect in my opinion and some of the QOL changes I mentioned.
See her kit is weird. Its like it works and it doesn't work. Without her ultimate even after 6 she feels just bleh. Without her ulti her W and E just doesnt seem to fit anywhere. If you look at 90% of champs. They can use their QWE abilities well without being restricted by their ultimates.

Some changes they could do is, yes, increase her orbs but also slightly increasing the orbit speed.

One more change is maybe add a Quinn level disruption on her R


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Tyrannus0

Recruiter

01-28-2014

I feel a touch obligated to post her so I'll add my two cents.

Personally I think she's in a relatively good place right now, seeing as balancing her is as precarious and volatile as balancing a marble on the edge of a knife. She works thematically at the moment, but an opponent who knows her weaknesses can crush her.

Personally, I play her as a bruiser, I stick onto high priority targets after my ADC, like Zed, LeBlanc, and Fizz and 'peel'. And when I say peel I mean stab the hell out of them until they can't kill my ADC. Her sustained damage is relatively high for an 'assassin' but low for a bruiser, and her burst is low for an assassin but but high for a bruiser. I think she should stay that way, it DOES add flavor, and she interacts with her targets in a unique way. It's not JUST club the enemy as quickly as possible, or being so absurdly tanky you inevitably win. It's more like crippling, then finishing them off. I like this feel, and this style. But I'm biased because, well, I like it.

If I had to buff her, I'd increase her mana somewhat, rather than just decreasing her costs. It would let her synergize with Archangels staff a little more, but still leaves the need to invest into some kind of MP5.


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PsychoB0b

Senior Member

01-28-2014

...I actually really like your ideas. Diana as a champion is someone I've always liked...and along with Swain, Koggles, and Udyr is amoung my favorite champs in the game...although one I definitely need to play more.

Her design is absolutely beautiful, and theres not a single thing about it I dislike.

Her playstyle as an 'all in' mage is also something I really enjoy...though after just getting out of a game with her and despite not doing badly...was completely unable to fight anyone due to how hard the nerfs have hit her. Glass cannon pantheon was getting tickled by my all in dmg. :/

I fully support your ideas, and hope Riot gives them a read.


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

I like the responses you guys have said and I agree. I think her current kit is fine and could probably just be moved back to where it was damage wise before the second set of nerfs. I have done well with her and I would like her to be a bit stronger due to her more predictable nature on that if she misses her Q you have nothing to fear.

In the current form of her not they could just make the range a little hither and give Q and Rba better ratio. If they allowed the current pale cascade to apply moonlight and didn't automatically take the debuff off of all champions when she used her ult then I think she would be stronger without being overboard. Arguably if she got far ahead she could be too much but that is rewarding the player for stomping and punishing the enemy for mot trying to be safer or not bring CC etc.


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Shadow077

Junior Member

01-29-2014

I posted this idea in a different Diana thread but here it is again.

I think a cool idea would be to add a secondary active on Diana's E. This second active would be able to push enemies away from Diana based on how far they were pulled. It would still apply the same slow/other effects. So Diana would cast E to pull enemies in then be able to cast E again to push them away.


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Punish This Hole

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow077 View Post
I posted this idea in a different Diana thread but here it is again.

I think a cool idea would be to add a secondary active on Diana's E. This second active would be able to push enemies away from Diana based on how far they were pulled. It would still apply the same slow/other effects. So Diana would cast E to pull enemies in then be able to cast E again to push them away.
That sounds cool and all, but what exactly would be the purpose of it?


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnyOther View Post
That sounds cool and all, but what exactly would be the purpose of it?
It would give her the ability to escape after killing a priority target. It just increases dive safety.


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Vesh

Game Designer

01-29-2014
1 of 19 Riot Posts

This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.


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Splinterheart

Senior Member

01-29-2014

I personally favour her as a fighter over assassin. I assume it's not for quite a long time, but any idea when you guys want to giver her a look/rework into either more fighter or assassin?


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Maximum Jarvan

Senior Member

01-29-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh View Post
This is an incredibly well done post and you've correctly identified a number of key issues with the champion.

"This is because she has a fighter/assassin design and you guys don't like shields on assassins or burst damage on fighters. You have accidentally given her too much durabilty during the situations where she gets a full shield off which makes her feel unfair to play against even though one crit will probably eat her shield assuming she gets it off and doesn't have to use hourglass immediately or get hit with some form of CC. "

This is pretty much the problem. Diana has a role identity crisis right now where shes pretty good at a lot of things but not really the best at any of them. When she's strong, she's good at way too much. Her vacuum on E also accentuates this problem because it puts a huge amount of her power budget into her team's followup ability (Diana when Rumble and J4 were really strong in competitive was really scary despite her average winrate in soloqueue/normals)

Let's talk about both the fighter and the assassin role and what some options and challenges are for each.

Assassins generally have one primary goal: Get in, get a kill, and get out. Diana on live currently can get in, kill someone, and then just generally stays alive due to tankiness. She doesn't really have that many hoops to jump through to do this either. Squishier assassins like Akali have to measure very carefully when they go in and then have other elements of evasiveness (her twilight shroud) that gives her play/counterplay with the enemy that's both positioning and sight based.

Diana doesn't have this however. She just needs to jump a guy and hit all her buttons and if she's ahead enough then she wins. This is especially problematic due to her AP scaling shield (get defensive rewards for building offensive) and you correctly identified that as a core problem. Even without it, if she was powerful enough to just nuke somebody from full but then squishy enough to die for it, Diana post-6 might as well have a Q that reads "on hit, both Diana and her enemy die." Clearly not a very exciting ability for either party involved.

I personally find her prospects as an AP fighter to be much more promising. Taking off some of her crazy burst while giving her tools to do more in fights late game could be a cool approach, especially since she has a cool tuning point in her passive. Increasing base attack speed could definitely allow her to make better use of her 3 hit passive pattern which is generally a little less "bull****" then getting Q -> R -> R'd to death as a carry.

There's other ways to do this as well, and I'm not saying in any way that Diana should be an auto-attack-only champion. Her passive definitely feels pretty good but to add to that, her pattern of making a grand entrance with Q -> R -> E -> Zhonyas is really awesome. After that effect wears off though, we need to ask what Diana should be doing. Should she get to auto burst a carry with another Q->R->R combo, or should she be using a mix of her spells and autoattacks to have a longer time to kill but with more sustained damage?

I personally believe that this approach would be better for Diana overall and would allow her to have healthier tuning points.

This is seriously a great post though. I'd love to have more discussion about her.
Yes finally a Red!

Well I guess I understand if you really don't want her to be an assassin anymore. I guess the big problem for me is that she is completely reliant on her looping skillshot to apply moonlight. I just figured for thematics it would be best to contrast her from Leona as far as possible from roles in game and build paths. With her current power level she really can't do much against tanky top Lakers due to just not having enough damage or enough survivability to endure their ranking.

I guess the real problem is that in her optimal role of mid she is a bit too tanky and top she is too squishy. And then in jungle her gank strength is so weak pre 6 without your enemy seriously making mistakes. I am sure kn page 3 you noticed two posts with kit changes pushing her either way. What were your thoughts on those?

Thank you in advance I truly do appreciate the time you are putting in to reply to me on my favorite champion.

PS Also I too enjoy the dramatic dive but seldom zhonyas immediately as it gives a split second of confusion that way.