Why I'm concerned about Riven

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Rebelle Fleur

Senior Member

01-26-2014

if u think riven needs buffs ur bad at her lol


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Mirage Night

Senior Member

01-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Riven View Post
Ok, look, I've come off as whiny so I'm going to try a thoughtful post for you this time.

On PBE, the current set of live Riven nerfs felt fine to me- however, on review I've started to feel as if the gameplay experience on PBE is grossly divorced from reality. Let me give you an example of what I mean.

I fully expected the nerfs to drop her overall winrate somewhere back in the 48% range- nerfs always drop champion winrate and she was hovering around 50% prior- but they were much more substantial than that in overall impact and we can clearly see this on a summary review of her metrics via lolking. She lost 5% winrate virtually overnight. That takes a catastrophically strong hit to a champion.

But why? My experience with her doesn't seem to have changed much save one key detail- her very early game feels extremely vulnerable to bullying now. Since Riven has one of the lowest hp5 values in the game, this early bullying is very effective vs her and can easily shove her out lane, preventing a recover when she hits her 'trade evenly' point around level 4.

Secondly, her shield is simply not an effective tool in the toplane. It borders on useless against DOTs, including ignite, and most toplaners don't have the attack speed required for it to mitigate much. Sustained damage deals simply don't notice it's mitigation value right now, and DoT champions like teemo always get free damage through it. It is still effective against burst rotation champions like Renekton, but anyone who deals their damage in a slow or sustained fashion might as well ignore the shield value.

Given her low durability, these two things combined are sufficient to open her up to early bullying to a huge degree, and given her snowball reliance, this basically means you have to outskill your opponent by a wide margin to win, or get ganks. She's simply zoned levels 1-3. It's very disappointing for a champion who RELIES on early snowballing to lack early game trading power and to be forced into a passive role in lane. To mitigate it, she can start dorans shield and utilize defense masteries- but these are both just stopgap measures, and they'll doubtless be nerfed.

Midlane, she's still alright enough. Yes, though, I do feel she's genuinely horrid top. People who want to play her but aren't extremely practiced don't deserve an automatic loss.
I have to disagree.

1. Her loss of 25 ~ 35 trade damage in the 1st 3 levels are pretty heavy. However, I would argue she still trades well enough to stand against most other top laners with 2 exceptions, renekton and shyvana.

2. I have never used flash on Riven, I have found exhaust ignite to be better for her over all. As a result I can mitigate their trade potential much more easily then I would with Flash ignite. As such these issues with melee trades tend to bot as visible for me. An though I loose the surprise engage every so often.

3. All top laners have a key burst ability, with the knowing the timing on those her shield is very useful for those.


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LululuCawCaw

Senior Member

01-26-2014

I'm concerned about 80% of players picking her up again and start smashing their keyboards.


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Maximum Riven

Senior Member

01-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
It's not a 5% drop. If you look at mid elo its a decent amount, and probably correlates to people adapting, but it was like 1-2ish% for higher tier play. My assumption is that things will catch up as people adapt, but I assure you that the core gameplay team is monitoring this situation closely and won't be comfortable in a world where Riven is actually not playable.

The other elephant in the room here is that Riven doesn't have great counterplay, so she runs a risk of when she is OP at all, becoming a snowball steamroller. Shield duration is one such intended change that should improve counterplay somewhat by providing a better window for opponents to exploit, and more of a need for Riven to time it's use.

- Zileas
I agree she didn't have great counterplay lategame because the shield uptime was near on constant prior once she'd maxed it and capped her CDR, but the downside to that is her laning gets hit twice earlygame. I feel as if it's possible a happy medium has been missed with this suite of changes.

One of the major problems I'm encountering is that I simply can't speak accurately to the current suite on PBE for the same reason my perceptions on this one changed. PBE games are simply troll tier- you can't accurately test champion power since every game is an unmitigated stomp and most of them have 2-3 people not playing seriously at all.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-26-2014
2 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanical Heart View Post
OP speaks the truth. Win rate dropped by 4-5%. Quite painful


Zileas must be able to get better data than me. Looks like a 4-5% drop to me. Maybe 3% depending on where you're looking.
I have direct server data in which I can slice out different game types, elo bands, and so forth, and be looking at 100% of games played across most of our servers worldwide. I can also see trends over time, etc. Indications point to some learning occurring, and mid-elo being hit harder than high elo.


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Kuro Pichu

Member

01-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
It's not a 5% drop. If you look at mid elo its a decent amount, and probably correlates to people adapting, but it was like 1-2ish% for higher tier play. My assumption is that things will catch up as people adapt, but I assure you that the core gameplay team is monitoring this situation closely and won't be comfortable in a world where Riven is actually not playable.

The other elephant in the room here is that Riven doesn't have great counterplay, so she runs a risk of when she is OP at all, becoming a snowball steamroller. Shield duration is one such intended change that should improve counterplay somewhat by providing a better window for opponents to exploit, and more of a need for Riven to time it's use.

- Zileas
ban maximum riven so he learns to stop spamming


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Twist741

Member

01-26-2014

You're a lot higher ranked than I am, Maximum Riven, but in my ELO, I think the drop in her winrate is coming from her being spam-picked mid at the moment. And she's being wrecked there, at least the games I've played the past few days. She seems to still be doing alright top (I don't play her, and haven't seen her top that much lately, so I can't say much there), but for games I've personally witnessed, her mid-lane winrate has been ~35-40%.


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Maximum Riven

Senior Member

01-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I have direct server data in which I can slice out different game types, elo bands, and so forth, and be looking at 100% of the results.
This is good. My own perceptions aside the largest part of my concern stems from review of our public side and very incomplete data on her post changes. People keep accusing me of being 'butthurt I cant win' but that's not why I'm even posting. She feels perfectly managable to me but she doesn't deserve to be 'bad' on an absolute scale.

It's comforting to know Riot keeps a close eye on these metrics.


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Boyahda

Senior Member

01-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post

The other elephant in the room here is that Riven doesn't have great counterplay, so she runs a risk of when she is OP at all, becoming a snowball steamroller.
Should we expect a Riven rework in the near future?


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Oaklen

Senior Member

01-26-2014

Rammus wasn't even played in top tier tournaments and he was nerfed, you will get no pity from me. She is a snowball character, while that may be fun for you, it's not fun for the receiving end to be force to play tanks and be passive versus her. Otherwise you had zero chance to face her. With the new nerfs people can finally bully her back when her shield is down and force a even playing field. I would honestly like to see her just rekitted to not be a feast or famine champion. Get rid of that all in level 1-3 and instant gibs at 6 play style for her.

In the end there is a good chance with her fanbase that Riot will undo something or re-buff her. She makes them too much money to let her be trash tier, no offense Riot. That's just smart business. I have faith in them.


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