"vi ult has no counterplay"

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Wolf McWolf

Senior Member

01-25-2014

That's probably the first time I've seen Zileas be so cordial. Usually he seems to make people he responds to look like dimwits.


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Ololoshev

Member

01-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Hey Bro,

Hope your night is going well. I for one am PARTAYING over here with a cup of coffee and my work laptop, and took a break from some email to read your thread.

Anyhow, I don't 100% agree with how you are using counterplay. I think Zhonyas and 'shouldve picked that champion' arent really good examples.

Counterplay has to do with RICHNESS of responses that are typically available. It does not have to do with COUNTERS. Most of what you are listing are either absolute responses (counters) or infrequent responses (a subset of champions that do have good counterplay against her). Good counterplay means that in a high amount of situations, opponents can make responses to what you are doing that have some chance of success, but more importantly, are interesting to both of you (and preferably have subtlety in execution, and lots of it-depends, potential for skill mastery on both ends, and so forth)

About half of what you are suggesting fits into this. using blinks, fast moves, snares to stop her -- all legit, and stuff she can try to bait out, or act later to reduce efficacy. It's a fair critique though that a lot of champions don't have an answer, and that's not ideal. In an ideal world, all champions would have SOME Counterplay vs her in general, and there are definitely cases where it's more flat. I don't think she's the worst offender, but it's not a totally unfair critique.

We as designers here really do need to get on top of this stuff and continue to gradually improve the % of situations that contain strong counterplay, but this stuff takes time. Hoping we can make a dent in it at the role level first.

Anyhow, thanks for the post.
So why do things like targeted CC or targeted abilities exist at all? If you want to win you'd better be sure your opponent has the least possible number of options, that's the point. You have skill shots? Well better make it so your opponent can't see you using them before he got hit already. Wanna kill someone? You'd better kill him before he can react. It's fun to watch how champions get nerfed for being good at things they're supposed to be good at. All these assasin nerfs just because they are good at killing things fast.


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Mynt

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Senior Member

01-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ololoshev View Post
So why do things like targeted CC or targeted abilities exist at all?
Don't get in range of them.

Can't be missed =/= can't be avoided.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-25-2014
4 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf McWolf View Post
That's probably the first time I've seen Zileas be so cordial. Usually he seems to make people he responds to look like dimwits.
I cannot make people look like dimwits, I can only point out if they've made themselves look like dimwits.


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TheKillerAngel

Senior Member

01-25-2014

Zileas, I remember you from the days of WarCraft 3 when you went by the name TCadwell on the BattleNet forums.


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UnknownRandom

Senior Member

01-25-2014

ask your alistar to head butt people away from the person vi ults


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

01-25-2014
5 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ololoshev View Post
So why do things like targeted CC or targeted abilities exist at all? If you want to win you'd better be sure your opponent has the least possible number of options, that's the point. You have skill shots? Well better make it so your opponent can't see you using them before he got hit already. Wanna kill someone? You'd better kill him before he can react. It's fun to watch how champions get nerfed for being good at things they're supposed to be good at. All these assasin nerfs just because they are good at killing things fast.
Great question. The reason is that the character needs to be considered in terms of total counterplay and gameplay, and sometimes reliable tools are needed to accomplish those goals. Throwing strong reliable CC on an ult can be done, but carries risk. In Vi's case, the ult has high synergy with everything else she is doing, so the overall counterplay issue is heightened. I think that's why this is a big discussion item.

For what it's worth, I don't have an opinion on her overall power level or that sort of thing.


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The LeBlanc Show

Senior Member

01-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I cannot make people look like dimwits, I can only point out if they've made themselves look like dimwits.
Please state your opinion on how fair it is that someone can be dived from 2 screens away with an auto lock ult that basically guarantees your team a kill + engage.

I get it, Vi isn't perfect, but her presence is unbelievable. Q+aa+E your half dead, ult, gg if anyone else touches you.

- a Squishy.


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Feed Zac Candy

Senior Member

01-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
I cannot make people look like dimwits, I can only point out if they've made themselves look like dimwits.
This is why you're one of my favorite people on the internet.


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Trolololo02

Member

01-25-2014

This thread gave me cancer ... as usually any Balance/proposal/QQ threads from any punk.