@Morello, @Hephastopheles, @Phreak Talon QoL Change needed

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TaIont

Senior Member

01-25-2014

Pink warding this thread.


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

01-25-2014
1 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseville View Post
Hello to anyone who took precious time out of their day to read my input on my favorite champion.

Currently, Talon's Q: Noxian Diplomacy deals 30/60/90/120/150(+ 30% Bonus AD)additional damage, followed by 10/20/30/40/50(+ 100% Bonus AD) over 6 seconds, Talon is given vision of the target for the duration.

My issue with this is that the cooldown for Noxian Diplomacy is 4 seconds at rank 5 with zero cooldown reduction. If you're constantly using the ability on the same target, you're potentially losing 1/3 of the power offered to you.

A proposed fix to this issue is to have the damage and reveal portions of the ability separated in a fashion similar to the Nidalee trap. The damage could then be condensed to deal the same amount over 2 seconds while still revealing for the current duration. With a 2 second duration, the damage would have a 100% chance to complete itself no matter how much CDR you get. This would also offer better synergy with his E ability: Cutthroat, as it has a higher chance to deal it's full damage while still amplified.

If there did need to be some tradeoff for potentially dealing higher damage, the duration of the vision could be reduced to 4 seconds. However, I don't necessarily see this as necessary, but regardless it's still an option.

Once again, thanks for taking time to read. Please leave any positive or negative input that you may have. I'd hope to have a Riot member give some sort of input as well.
Decoupling the damage from the vision on Noxian Diplomacy and making the DoT shorter would certainly remove a point of frustration from playing as Talon (in exchange for a slight thematic loss, with the reveal effect no longer being explained by the concept of Talon tracking a target by the blood trail it leaves behind). It would however also end up buffing Talon's burst damage, which would concern me given he already deals most of his damage over a short window of time relative to the amount of counterplay available to the target.

Something that would be good to investigate at some point would be increasing both Talon's highs and lows (increase his potential best case power without increasing his average power basically). Could see this sort of change being a good fit in that context, will pass it on to anyone working on Talon in the future.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

01-25-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Decoupling the damage from the vision on Noxian Diplomacy and making the DoT shorter would certainly remove a point of frustration from playing as Talon (in exchange for a slight thematic loss, with the reveal effect no longer being explained by the concept of Talon tracking a target by the blood trail it leaves behind). It would however also end up buffing Talon's burst damage, which would concern me given he already deals most of his damage over a short window of time relative to the amount of counterplay available to the target.

Something that would be good to investigate at some point would be increasing both Talon's highs and lows (increase his potential best case power without increasing his average power basically). Could see this sort of change being a good fit in that context, will pass it on to anyone working on Talon in the future.
Have you thought about doing this by reworking his passive and possibly removing the damage amp on his E and replacing it with something else? I think it would be better overall if he could do more than just always have to land E then rake you in order to do anything.


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Fisk

Senior Member

01-25-2014

Hey just logged into comment on this... Why not allow talons DOTs to stack up so it rewards talons for building CDR... Also add a stacking slow with each Q so you can proc passive better.. Fits thematically and fixes this problem!


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THEJJSLAY

Senior Member

01-26-2014

Bumpity Bump Bump


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Meddler

Lead Champion Designer

01-26-2014
2 of 2 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CragBlade View Post
Have you thought about doing this by reworking his passive and possibly removing the damage amp on his E and replacing it with something else? I think it would be better overall if he could do more than just always have to land E then rake you in order to do anything.
Passive's a prime spot to put something with a bit more gameplay, definitely. E damage amp similarly, would want to find something for rank up incentive on that if replacing it.

Also quite agree with you r.e. giving him some more options in team fights, we've found that assassins tend to be healthiest when they've got some fallback or alternative options so aren't quite as 'all in or nothing'.


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Javarino

Junior Member

01-26-2014

Just a thought on talon currently, I've never quite understood the best use cases on his ultimate. It is both really strong and quite wonky to use. The stealth doesn't really flow when you'll probably have to use it to stop the enemy cc'ing you halfway through your combo, especially if you find you need to get in an extra auto finish the enemy. I won't waste time ranting on this, riot definitely knows way more than I do on this, but while I love the thematic stealth on talon, I don't feel it flows as well as the escape and kill reset skills on assassins like yi, zed, akali and his counterpart katarina. Since you're looking at the passive more aggressively, I was wondering if it couldn't work like this:

Talon's ult loses the instant invisibility, but either provides a slow, ms boost, or aa damage increase instead, and the invisibility is moved to his passive. On killing his target(possibly assists as well) talon is briefly stealthed and(possibly) granted a movement speed boost. This could work as an escape tool for best use cases on hitting low enemies, while meaning talon doesn't get a free pass on those he just wants to burst to half hp and walk away from. It might also mean a downgrade on his 100-0 potential, while making him more like zed in the kill the squishy and get away clean department.

Right now talon's reward for hitting the best target against some teamcomps is that he trades a carry for his own death.


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Diamond Song

Senior Member

01-26-2014

i feel like talons Q needs a buff, either the on hit damage or the dot, yeah you have vision for 6 seconds but the dot itself is pretty useless.


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Mooseville

Senior Member

01-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Passive's a prime spot to put something with a bit more gameplay, definitely. E damage amp similarly, would want to find something for rank up incentive on that if replacing it.

Also quite agree with you r.e. giving him some more options in team fights, we've found that assassins tend to be healthiest when they've got some fallback or alternative options so aren't quite as 'all in or nothing'.
For a long time I've thought that Talon's passive should affect all of his physical damage, mainly because his play-style isn't really focused on using his auto attacks as much as his abilities. However, I also know that this would be a pretty substantial increase to his damage, so I understand why that's in place.

So, I've brainstormed a few options to pitch to you. I'm just spit balling multiple ideas to use as a starting point and havent fleshed anything out yet.

1. Talon's numbers can be kept the way they are, and the DoT on his Q can be switched to magic damage and have it's duration reduced. Reveal duration remains untouched in this case.

2. Talon's DoT duration is reduced, but also nerfed. Reveal duration is reduced as well. from here we have 2 directions to move.
2A. Talon's Passive is modified to affect his physical damage.
2B. Talon's damage amp is moved from his E to his Q, and is in effect while the target is damaged by the DoT.

3. Talon's DoT and vision are moved from his Q to his E. The DoT is changed to flat damage and the reveal duration is shortened slightly.

4. Talon's Q base damage is nerfed, and his DoT duration is shortened without being nerfed. Vision is kept the same in this case.

I came up with all of these in a few seconds, so it's very crude at this point. I do believe that every option is valid, though.

Oh.........and before I forget. I REFUSED TO BE IGNORED.


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MP44 Rommel

Member

01-26-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddler View Post
Decoupling the damage from the vision on Noxian Diplomacy and making the DoT shorter would certainly remove a point of frustration from playing as Talon (in exchange for a slight thematic loss, with the reveal effect no longer being explained by the concept of Talon tracking a target by the blood trail it leaves behind). It would however also end up buffing Talon's burst damage, which would concern me given he already deals most of his damage over a short window of time relative to the amount of counterplay available to the target.

Something that would be good to investigate at some point would be increasing both Talon's highs and lows (increase his potential best case power without increasing his average power basically). Could see this sort of change being a good fit in that context, will pass it on to anyone working on Talon in the future.
Don't listen to the OP of this thread he knows nothing about Talon

Your vision Portion of the bleed is not exactly a huge mechanic of his gameplay considering his burst style assassination.

As it is a Single Talon can Proc 5 stacks of Black Cleaver and apply and refresh it continuously for a while and it even gives him that sustained damage that adds a level of effect on top of his burst, considering for example that most often anti-burst mechanics involve shields, people do not really expect to deal with a sustained DOT after

The actual mechanical core Problem with Talon is that the REST of his kit is very much all in and Talon does not use Q more than once in an actual teamfight, let alone on other people. His entire playstyle and kit is "all-in" Q itself the only spell that can be used liberally as "poke damage" with W being on a massive cooldown.

what would be an excellent talon QOL change is increasing his attack speed or reducing his backswing on his attacks. Each time he attacks he swings his giant cloak back and forth and it's absolutely slow and painful to watch.