@Morello, lets talk Zyra Mid

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Fiora Mid GG Alt

Senior Member

01-21-2014

Edit: Just wanted to add that for all of Season 3 my name was Zyra Top GG because I truly loved playing Zyra THAT much. But with S4 Zyra just isn't a champ I'm going to main.

Hey Morello,

Zyra is currently sitting at a ~50% win rate, her highest pick & winrate items are support items. I remember when you nerfed her you said something along the lines of:

"Despite the fact that she is rarely played mid, she's really strong there so a nerf is justified."

Meanwhile, Swain, Xerath, and Ziggs (though Ziggs has picked up considerable popularity) are all low picks for mids yet are unbelievably powerful especially when in the hands of someone who has mained the champion for an extended period of time. But this just isn't the case with Zyra anymore.

You also stated that:

"20% free CDR just made her builds awkward because you would always go over 4% due to masteries with athenes/morello or blue buff."

Yet... Now we either go over 10% with athenes/morellos + blue buff, or we sit at 35% with just blue buff. Because lets face facts, with the massive damage nerf (which takes something like 600+ AP to just return to pre-gut values) there just isn't room in her build for athene's anymore. I mean honestly her build path was extremely open before, you could do a number of different types of builds to help her find her place in each team comp and against each team comp.

Now? You're locked in with death cap and zhonyas no question. You HAVE to get back that lost damage. She's squishy as all hell and champions like yasuo, khazix, vi, zed, fizz, etc. all get to her incredibly easily, so you NEED rylai's and liandry's for the health. Which leaves void staff and boots.

There's your build. Every. Single. Game.

Gone are the days that instead of death cap, I could build Abyssal. Gone are the days that if I was in a losing lane I could buy athene's and play safe for late game.

So lets look at the current state of the game. League of gap closers, she just doesn't have the necessary tools to deal with the junglers and mids that are so prevalent today. Champions she used to destroy (namely, melee including assassins) laugh at her pathetic base and scaling health, garbage scaling on both spell and plant damage and ridiculously high CDs thanks to the fact that she can no longer build CDR and W isn't worth leveling as your second (or third if counting R as first priority) skill.

Morello I ask you are you planning on fixing this? She has been completely shoved out of mid lane. Your reason for nerfing her so hard in mid was "she countered her natural counters; assassins."

And this is a BAD thing?! She was extremely weak to champions with high range, tankiness, sustain and mobility.

Ziggs, Xerath, Ahri were all champions that could make even the best Zyra's rage.

Add onto the fact that just about any jungle with a gap closer and CC just DESTROYED her in mid and she was a very high risk yet high reward champion to play in mid. Now? She has no reward, unless you build DFG on her she has 0 burst potential against even ADC's or other squishies. So she has this incredible risk in playing her mid, she pushes really easily, if she harasses she pushes so playing her properly required a lot of game knowledge and awareness and she is rewarded with...

Garbage burst, decent poke (Xerath, Ziggs, Lux, Nidalee, Orianna, etc. all poke better than her), decent CC (if you build merc treads her E lasts a whole .5 seconds! and an ult that thanks to her new locked in build path and gutting of her CDR has an incredibly long CD) and incredibly squishy.

I just... don't understand. Her pick rate sits at a 2-3% rate, which would suggest that only people who truly love Zyra barely make her work 50% of the time and only in the support role.

Hell LOLKING classifies her as support only now.

Is this not a problem in your eyes? Is she fine as-is? I ****ing LOVE Zyra, I used to play her mid, top and jungle. Now? I don't even trust her mid or top, jungle is ehhh so so, with the Q nerfs she's really susceptible to jungle invades.

I mean... Is this it Morello, are you satisfied with Zyra?

IDK for me, I look at Zyra and I want to play her so bad. But I know that if I do I'm risking my chances of winning, Zyra was my always go to champion. I want to win? Play Zyra? I want to have fun and just enjoy League? Zyra. Now? I look at champions and my main champion, the champion I always enjoyed playing is gone and the rest...? The rest are meh. And the truly worst part, I waited a year patiently for a new skin oh so desperately and I bought it the day it came out... I don't even get to enjoy it a skin I quite literally waited a YEAR FOR and I don't even enjoy it because Zyra is weak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FingFuzzball View Post
Whole kit got whacked to Kingdom Come and the only "compensation" received was a teeny tiny 0.05 ap ratio buff to Q, a seed "fix" that made it impossible to EWQW plant combo without ending up with two thorn lashers (which was also accompanied with a seed nerf to safe time), and a small plant damage increase...because what a mid wants when she's squishier than jello lumps is for her damage to be spread out over time, right?
^nails it on the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I think a lot of this is a core problem we've had called "Olafing." I'm not going to speak to Zyra's fine tuning, because at this point I lack some of the detailed context to speak really well to it (I'm sure the others do, and I'm curious so I'll poke around).

I would like to talk about what I think has happened strategically, a bit, and why these conversations tend to both frequent and tough. One thing I think that has been really un-awesome about game health has been our ability to follow-up on changes that have intricacies like this. Simply put, we tend to get one shot at fixing things over a long period, and then a myriad of other issues and priorities quickly take us somewhere else.

I think this is one of the single biggest sticking points in what I believe has been really harsh on people. With our frequent updates, I think it'd be great to use that to dial changes in and out as data/information changes, but prioritizing follow-up work on things or something that needs attention that's not OMG ITS BURNING ON FIERY FIRE RIGHT NOW is something we're just not good at. The good news is this information comes from a number of pretty serious discussion on strategies to do better;

That being said, Zyra's a tough nut to crack - she's very utility-loaded which makes her a natural support fit, but her ability to do well in lane can suffer if not more mage-like. I wonder if clever tuning can do a lot here if we'd focused on it.

Quick question - why is Anivia support such a badly-considered pick, looking at the total package?
I would say the reason is because Anivia doesn't have as long as range as Zyra and Zyra brings stronger utility. With how many dashes there are (not counting flash) her wall is fair useless against most junglers. Which leaves an AoE stun, meanwhile Zyra can E > W the approaching jungler from River and Q > W the enemy adc and support scaring them off.

I was actually already thinking that Zyra's utility makes her too strong as a support and too weak as a mid. Why? Because so long as she has good support she's perfect for support which means she can never have enough strength to deal with mid. Personally I think a slight re-work is needed, something like:

Q, W, and R's range are all dramatically reduced (say by half). Her current passive is removed entirely and her base stats are buffed in the following places:

MS bumped from 325 to 335.

Base health bumped from 355 to 475, scaling increased to 80 from 74.

Passive - Rise of the Thorns, when Zyra is standing within x range of her plants or seeds, she gains x amount of MS.

Q - Remains the same, aside from range reduction.

W - When Zyra is standing next to one of her plants, her and her plants damage are increased by x/x/x/x/x, remains the same otherwise. The amount of seeds she can store is bumped from 2, to 3 and it is possible to get up to 6 plants out at a time (with 40% cdr, 5 with 20%, and 4 with 0%).

E - Zyra can double cast E, when double casting E she instantly teleports to where the end of her E spell currently is. However, the further E goes out the less damage it does to enemies and the less CC it does. It starts doing less damage and cc when it out ranges the new Q/W range.

R - If Zyra is standing on her thorns when she casts R she gains 20/30/40 armor/mr and her plants are automatically healed to full and their health is doubled.

Reduce the damage numbers, increase the scaling, make plants tankier.

------------

These changes in my opinion would turn her into something along the lines of a close range DPS mage with her plants.

Combo would be something like: E > W > E > Q > W > W > R

But the most important changes for Zyra would be that she HAS to be in close proximity to deal damage.

As long as she remains a long range utility mage, her support will always be just *too* strong. So I would retain her core attributes, give her some needed mobility, reduce her range and therefor her viability in bot lane (see: anivia).


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Fiora Mid GG Alt

Senior Member

01-21-2014

bump until red


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

01-21-2014

Zero burst potential?


.65 + .5 + .7 = 1.85 AP ratio.

That's enough without any plants to put a major dent in someone's HP. Nevermind the fact that this also disables them long enough to land a second Q, and that the plants do another .3-.9 AP ratio damage during this time.


I've never had problems ****ting on people with Zyra.

She's fine, and you're buying into the hype.


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Fiora Mid GG Alt

Senior Member

01-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yago Xiten View Post
Zero burst potential?


.65 + .5 + .7 = 1.85 AP ratio.

That's enough without any plants to put a major dent in someone's HP. Nevermind the fact that this also disables them long enough to land a second Q, and that the plants do another .3-.9 AP ratio damage during this time.


I've never had problems ****ting on people with Zyra.

She's fine, and you're buying into the hype.
You're also Silver where you can sit in the front lines, focus down the ADC/APC and not get focused in return. Try playing her in High Gold / Low Plat, you sit back and poke the tanks and ult when you can get the most out of it... And then nothing, unless you built CDR your CDs will not be up in time and if you did build CDR then you are sacrificing %health damage, a slow (which vs league of gap closers is pretty nice), or damage just to get back to pre gut levels.

I have played her extensively since her release and I was able to pull a 60% win rate or better with her, now? I'm lucky to win 1/3rd of my matches.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

01-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiora Mid GG Alt View Post
You're also Silver where you can sit in the front lines, focus down the ADC/APC and not get focused in return. Try playing her in High Gold / Low Plat, you sit back and poke the tanks and ult when you can get the most out of it... And then nothing, unless you built CDR your CDs will not be up in time and if you did build CDR then you are sacrificing %health damage, a slow (which vs league of gap closers is pretty nice), or damage just to get back to pre gut levels.

I have played her extensively since her release and I was able to pull a 60% win rate or better with her, now? I'm lucky to win 1/3rd of my matches.
I commented on her #'s and burst. My Elo has nothing to do with it. She was hardly gutted. She lost 25 damage. That's not going to make or break someone.


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FergusMacBolg

Senior Member

01-21-2014

High risk? Errrrr, when I played her mid, which was quite a lot last season, I **** on people with my range. Riot introduced some risk with the range reduction on her Q.


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Albireo

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Senior Member

01-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by FergusMacBolg View Post
High risk? Errrrr, when I played her mid, which was quite a lot last season, I **** on people with my range. Riot introduced some risk with the range reduction on her Q.
The risk is to get jumped on and explode before your ultimate even proc... cause squshy, non mobile, with low damage early on.


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FergusMacBolg

Senior Member

01-21-2014

"Low damage early on"...? Dude, there's a reason she was picked support for so long. Her bases were insanely high. They pushed entire duos out of lane. Also her E has great range. If you got jumped on, it's your own fault. Or Zed hit 6 before you did, which is also your own fault.


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Quinn N Tonic

Member

01-21-2014

I 100% agree with this thread although i didn't use to main Zyra i did play her mid a decent amount and she is almost unplayable mid now


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Fiora Mid GG Alt

Senior Member

01-21-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by FergusMacBolg View Post
"Low damage early on"...? Dude, there's a reason she was picked support for so long. Her bases were insanely high. They pushed entire duos out of lane. Also her E has great range. If you got jumped on, it's your own fault. Or Zed hit 6 before you did, which is also your own fault.
Her bases were insanely high for SUPPORT not for mid and now her base damage is abysmal, she doesn't hold a candle to other pushers (anivia, swain, ziggs, etc) anymore. And to the guy saying she has no risk you're playing in low elo games then. The higher you play her in mid the more riskier she gets. Why? Because any jungle with CC just ****s on her because they KNOW they can camp her.


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