Regarding the Turret changes in 4.1

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HarrisonOwns

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

Stifling creativity and innovation by stopping what you don't like through arbitrarily chosen guidelines. MEH.


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
For this change, we were not concerned about the fast push aspect of the fast push (if that makes any sense). We were much more concerned about the uneven lane phase which invalidates multiple champions and circumvents the laning phase. And because fast pushing was not the only reason that lane swaps happened, the solution needed to be an asymetric one. (Otherwise the team initiating swap still has nothing to lose, and weak 1v2 laners will continue to never be used since you can just swap)
You don't need an asymmetric change. You need a change that causes towers to be tankier in a 1v2 lane.

If you introduce an assumption into your solution, you will create another problem which needs solving. You have to present a solution which solves just the problem you've stated, and no more. It has to make only the assumption you can be certain of, and no more.

What happens if we start taking 2v2 top lane, and that becomes the norm? Then we have our bruisers bot, for whatever reason. How would the damage reduction create discrepancies between champions? It would require thinking about.

And that thinking could require fixing.

Thats not a good design habit.


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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

01-16-2014
8 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by exec3 View Post
It feels like you're trying to treat the symptoms rather than go after the source. eg: you say that dragon isn't a meaningful tradeoff for 2v1 lanes, then why not spawn dragon earlier instead of trying to forcefully delay when towers can be killed?

I think however the main issue is that turrets are useless, the targeting AI is a joke full of holes eg: if you deal the killing blow on an enemy you won't take agro, you also won't take agro if the enemy you're attacking is out of turret range. Not to mention the issue where after only a little bit of armor/health you won't take that much damage towers allowing you more than enough time to successfully perform a dive. Diving should be a risk in and of itself but the dives I see in competitive and otherwise don't seem to have much risk.

Maybe if there was a summoners spell like garrison that caused turrets to attack faster and deal splash damage, then people can take that as a counter to 2v1 lanes (and dives in general which would be a good thing imo).

I just feel like your way of bringing lane swaps under control involves removing gameplay rather than adding counterplay.
Making the dragon spawn earlier and weaker is definately a way to solve this (and it is asymetric, as the solution needs to be). We chose to go the turret way mainly because we felt that a very weak global objective (lane swaps usually end before laners hit 6) with non-trivial rewards would warp the non-pro enviroment far more.


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Sizmic

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
This is an inelegant change, we will be the first to acknowledge that. Your points about burden of knowledge etc. are also completely valid. Believe me, the moment we feel we have a better change that accomplishes the goals, we will adopt the change.

I kind of feel like this is saying "A bad fix is better than no fix". I simply cannot agree with that I'd rather see towers be un-pushable for the first 3 mins than something like this. I know my alternative is a terrible one but I feel it does illustrate my point. I expect the game would be better off if left with the bonus armor.

Another option would be make the tower hit hard enough that it would just 3 shot a level 3 or 4 that would solve your fast push issue right there without making the lanes unbalanced.


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Ragebeard Manric

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
We do not think it will kill off lane swaps entirely. There should still be incentives to lane swap but teams will need to be much more calculated about when to do it
Can you give me an example of such a situation? As I see it right now if you are the one to initiate a lane swap you will just be putting yourself in a disadvantageous position unless their top laner is grossly incapable of 2v1 laning.

If you are the one that swaps you are basically setting yourself up to lose the race unless you are able to apply a significant amount more pressure on your lane. This is why it seems to me like it will probably just end up eliminating lane swapping as a strategy instead of making it OK sometimes.

And as I said previously, this really does cement 1-1-1-2 more firmly in place because teams will not be able to afford taking someone out of bot lane... not that I think a trilane will ever work in this game anyways.


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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

01-16-2014
9 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathBySky View Post
Doesn't this seem like a somewhat important issue? Would a hotfix be too hard? Could screw up some games
The reduction functions similarly with the temporary armor buff that used to exist (it is pre-mitigation) before 8 minutes and will quickly lose relevance as players gain AD


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisonOwns View Post
Stifling creativity and innovation by stopping what you don't like through arbitrarily chosen guidelines. MEH.
It's not about 'stopping what they don't like'. They don't want it to be the only way for pro play to happen. Ever since this strat was brought into favor in the middle of Season 3 it's been nothing but tanky champs like Renekton that can absorb the constant harass. You barely saw someone like Rumble or Kennen or even Jax. They couldn't handle those lanes on their own.


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BlazingSalvo

Senior Member

01-16-2014

People seem to be misguided in their complaints.

"So you're enforcing the meta."
Who cares? Right now lane swaps, 3v1 dives, kill a turret - every single game 0 is boring.

People want to see a toplane 1v1 skill matchup. A bot lane 2v2 skill matchup. Lane swaps have completely removed interaction in the first 10 minutes of the game for these lanes. It's boring, it's stale, and Riot is trying to make it better for the viewer since the viewers (and low level players who watch the games for entertainment) are the ones paying them.

edit: and 2v1 lanes create a hostile environment to anyone who isn't a manaless tank with sustain. Rewarding 1v1 leads to another breathe of life to 1v1, which is much easier to balance than 2v1.
Imagine if Jayce [or any carry-like champion] had to be balanced to survive a 2v1 (and possible get a kill in a 2v2 jungler situation) similar to how Renektons and Rumbles have done multiple times in LCS, while also being able to survive or escape dives.
Balancing for 1v1 is just much easier.


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AnonTwo

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Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
The reduction functions similarly with the temporary armor buff that used to exist (it is pre-mitigation) before 8 minutes and will quickly lose relevance as players gain AD
How does this affect Mid laner's who don't typically roam, and don't typically build AD?

For example, guys like Malzahar who're supposed to punish a roamer hard with incredible push power.


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Labcown

Senior Member

01-16-2014

I understand the point of fast pushing strategies invalidating the laning phase and therefore invalidating certain champions from ever being picked in the competitive scene, but the solution currently out seems HIGHLY artificial and only covers a very small part of the problem.

One solution I was reading on Reddit earlier was to increase the turret's damage reduction based on the number of enemies around it. What is your opinion on such a solution, which wouldn't invalidate the fast push strategy as a whole, but would then include more decision factors when deciding to siege a turret because of the scaling reduction.