Regarding the Turret changes in 4.1

First Riot Post
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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

01-16-2014
4 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragebeard Manric View Post
So give it to bottom tower too instead of forcing 1-1-1-2 every game.

We all know the change is either going to eliminate fast push strategies entirely or just force earlier bot lane aggression.
We do not think it will kill off lane swaps entirely. There should still be incentives to lane swap but teams will need to be much more calculated about when to do it


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

01-16-2014

This is incredibly uninspired and a downright joke.

So you're curbing a viable meta-strategy because you guys don't like the way it plays out...

Cool, continue to squelch creativity.

If a team wants to five-push bottom & that's viable, are you gonna stop that too?

Where does it begin and where does it end, this' a foolish bandaid to what should be a non-problem IMO.

@Solcrushed, your response to #3... aren't you using an equivalent argument to hard-push strat's prior to your guys' 'solution'? Isn't that how you counter the hard-push strat... so why bother making this change forcing out a meta-strat for what appears to be no good reason.


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Delicious Smores

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlargCow View Post
why not make dragon weaker earlier levels, so teams who lane swap sacrifice dragon cover. specifically changing certain turrets seems unintuitive
This is the best post in this thread.


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KilljoyX

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
2. If it is also on the bot lane turret it is no different from what we have currently. As far as time to bring down the turret is concerned, the pre 4.1 armor buff and the 4.1 flat reduction function very similarly.

3. Wouldn't it be a 4v4 if both teams feel that way?
3) Mid lanes are not equal. Mobile mids will dominate the season and the first to hit 6 will dive bot lane like scuba gragas. A ziggs cannot compete. A ori cannot compete.


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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

01-16-2014
5 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenwheel View Post
i know youre going to read this
i know you're not going to respond so i'm just going to leave this here....
Attachment 879070

i like the turret changes btw
I will acknowledge it, but this issue has been out there for far too long for me to comment on just now. I would rather bring concrete info rather than hopefuls


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
We do not think it will kill off lane swaps entirely. There should still be incentives to lane swap but teams will need to be much more calculated about when to do it
If you had implemented your desired changes by tying the damage reduction to whether or not the number of enemy champions present in proximity to the tower is greater than or equal to 2, then you would have had less of a backlash from the community. People are legitimately concerned that we will never have any variety in lane assignment and that league of legends will never innovate on its format. This solution, among all other potential solutions, was chosen for what reason?

Does the community perception of changes play no part in the balance? You should know more than anyone that balance is 1 part numbers and 5 parts perception.

This was not a wise move.


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Leo the yordle

Senior Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by KilljoyX View Post
3) Mid lanes are not equal. Mobile mids will dominate the season and the first to hit 6 will dive bot lane like scuba gragas. A ziggs cannot compete. A ori cannot compete.
Then you keep the approach paths warded and keep your jungler hanging around in order to counter that aggression? Remember these changes are inteded to last until 8 minutes.


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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

01-16-2014
6 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by UATderpyderp View Post
My main gripe with this change, is how artificial it seems. It's solely aimed at the competitive scene and it makes sense for no one else.

You guys always talk about burden of knowledge, but how is a newer player supposed to know these things?
Do you expect everyone to go into the wiki and check specifically for the part where it says that the first Top and Mid tower are more resistant than the bottom one, for seemingly no reason? These kind of fixes feel really unprofessional, honestly. They may make sense from a design standpoint, but not from a player's (Which should be your priority anyways)

Are you going to find another solution that feels more natural eventually?
This is an inelegant change, we will be the first to acknowledge that. Your points about burden of knowledge etc. are also completely valid. Believe me, the moment we feel we have a better change that accomplishes the goals, we will adopt the change.


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Scampy

Member

01-16-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcrushed View Post
We do not think it will kill off lane swaps entirely. There should still be incentives to lane swap but teams will need to be much more calculated about when to do it
The problem I think most players have with this is that it's a change specifically targeted at competitive LoL and/or very high ELO solo queue. The fact is, the vast majority of your player base, 95%+ or so, are being cemented into the standard 1-1-J-2 meta.

Not only that, but if I'm playing, say, Garen vs. Nasus top and get an early FB, I can't capitalize on that in terms of turret damage. I know minions are a big part of early pushing, but in terms of game feel, my big Demacian sword might as well be a piece of uncooked spaghetti as I slap it back and forth on the turret.

All I'm saying is, while I understand why you made the change and I think it's a good bandaid fix for the time being, I doubt it's the optimal solution. Maybe it takes a few months to figure out, but I know you guys can come up with something better to make the laning phase more attractive.


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Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

01-16-2014
7 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rankin View Post
@Solcrushed: Don't you think you are talking the easy way out? Fast push strategy is a strategy, regardless of what you say about it. And coming up with strategies is part of player skill as well, or do you not think people who sit and theorycraft strategies and team compositions are skilled at what they do?

Yes you have a valid concern that this has become the most dominant strategy in competitive play and that stifles the game, but this is the lazy man's way out. You could have introduced new items in the game that helps people counter fast pushing, or reduced the cooldown of the teleport summoner spell by a fair bit, so a team can respond to a fast push and also makes room for a lot more early game skirmishes, which makes for exciting viewing experience as well. Instead making the towers tankier definitely reeks of "We really don't want to use our gray matter", which is not what we expected of you, after you made some good changes as far as income flow goes.
For this change, we were not concerned about the fast push aspect of the fast push (if that makes any sense). We were much more concerned about the uneven lane phase which invalidates multiple champions and circumvents the laning phase. And because fast pushing was not the only reason that lane swaps happened, the solution needed to be an asymetric one. (Otherwise the team initiating swap still has nothing to lose, and weak 1v2 laners will continue to never be used since you can just swap)