@ Morello - A plat 1 Soraka player wants to speak.

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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyCake View Post
this is bull ****

you guys have nerfed every solo lane support champion and then when you announced you were going to increase gold flow to supports, you said that we're nerfing all traditional support champions because they may be too overpowered with the increased gold.

worst logic i have ever heard of
YEAH. Look at top laners! All the traditional top laners... are gone.

BUT LOOK AT MID. We're still using Karthus and Brand and oh wait we aren't.

BUT ADCS ARE SO MUCH BETTER. Ashe and okay lets not even PRETEND that new ADCs aren't blatantly better than old ones.

Supports are pretending like a problem that plagues the ENTIRE game is somehow only their problem.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-15-2014
15 of 15 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by KirbyCake View Post
this is bull ****

you guys have nerfed every solo lane support champion and then when you announced you were going to increase gold flow to supports, you said that we're nerfing all traditional support champions because they may be too overpowered with the increased gold.

worst logic i have ever heard of
Actually, even with your spin on it, that logically makes complete sense. I think you just made the point for me.

Support characters should support. SOLO SUPPORT CHARACTERS DON'T HAVE SOMEONE TO SUPPORT.

Is that clearer?


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FergusMacBolg

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Actually, even with your spin on it, that logically makes complete sense. I think you just made the point for me.

Support characters should support. SOLO SUPPORT CHARACTERS DON'T HAVE SOMEONE TO SUPPORT.

Is that clearer?
The real issue is that when a champion intended to be a support finds a home in another lane, you nerf the hell out of them so that support is their only option. When a solo laner finds use as a support, you're totally fine with it. You'll give them a love tap when they're overbearing, sure, but ultimately you'll allow them to go in either lane.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by FergusMacBolg View Post
The real issue is that when a champion intended to be a support finds a home in another lane, you nerf the hell out of them so that support is their only option. When a solo laner finds use as a support, you're totally fine with it. You'll give them a love tap when they're overbearing, sure, but ultimately you'll allow them to go in either lane.
When has this happened?

Zyra mid is too squishy and got her AP ratios nerfed hard.
Annie mid is too immobile.
Lulu top got OBLITERATED with nerfs.
Alistar got his damage completely neutered. You can't milk those, anymore.
Taric armor ratios -> deleted.
Soraka everything gone.

You are LYING. LYING. NOBODY REMEMBERS PATCH NOTES GREATER THAN I, AND I WILL SMITE THEE WITH GREAT INFORMATION SHOULD YOU CHOSE TO LIE.

At least until ranked comes back up...


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
There's a huge difference between "current state of numbers" and "intent." Additionally, the gold stream items are not working properly, and we're redoing them before we touch the tuning balance (since the items directly relate). This is coming out as soon as we get it done, which I believe is ASAP.
but isn't coin by far the best line of items? and yet the class it is mostly aimed at is the least dominant one(squishy traditional supports)?
currently we see a clear dominance of annie/leona/thresh(well,and dorans shield) won't these three benefit the most from buffing relic shield/spellthief lines of items?

also are there any plans regarding dorans shield at bot lane?(so far out of 6 games eu lcs had,we saw 12 doran shields in bot lane)


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Fashion Mage

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Actually, even with your spin on it, that logically makes complete sense. I think you just made the point for me.

Support characters should support. SOLO SUPPORT CHARACTERS DON'T HAVE SOMEONE TO SUPPORT.

Is that clearer?
Doesn't that seem a tad "inside-the-box" to you? I used to very much enjoy playing Soraka, Nami, and Janna mid, and I still do occasionally jungle as Taric. Either way, if you have that mentality then how do you justify mages going bot as supports? Not to mention, most supports aren't just "support", they usually have (and should have) a secondary role as well.

Btw, even though I don't necessarily agree with you (tbh I think a lot of the stuff you say is pretty ugh >_>; ), thanks for taking the time to actually debate a little. I don't remember the last time a Rioter did that.


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FergusMacBolg

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
When has this happened?

Zyra mid is too squishy and got her AP ratios nerfed hard.
Annie mid is too immobile.
Lulu top got OBLITERATED with nerfs.
Alistar got his damage completely neutered. You can't milk those, anymore.
Taric armor ratios -> deleted.
Soraka everything gone.

You are LYING. LYING. NOBODY REMEMBERS PATCH NOTES GREATER THAN I, AND I WILL SMITE THEE WITH GREAT INFORMATION SHOULD YOU CHOSE TO LIE.

At least until ranked comes back up...
You're proving my point. I think we're actually talking about the same thing but maybe I worded it strangely?


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JJI744

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Mages were undertuned a few patches after Season 3 due to assassin itemization. Assassins enjoyed massive success.

Therefore Riot hates mages.

There's a huge difference between "current state of numbers" and "intent." Additionally, the gold stream items are not working properly, and we're redoing them before we touch the tuning balance (since the items directly relate). This is coming out as soon as we get it done, which I believe is ASAP.

Now, this may be an issue of us not mentioning this stuff -I've been away from the forums for a bit.
This is hopefully just me being pessimistic, but doesn't that equate to roughly two months before you look at support balance? 1 month for the patch to address gold flow items, and then another month for the next patch to balance the champs?

I think a lot of the reason some players are upset was because the "aggressive tuning" to address traditional supports being phased out has been... not fast, nor major.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderswine View Post
but isn't coin by far the best line of items? and yet the class it is mostly aimed at is the least dominant one(squishy traditional supports)?
currently we see a clear dominance of annie/leona/thresh(well,and dorans shield) won't these three benefit the most from buffing relic shield/spellthief lines of items?

also are there any plans regarding dorans shield at bot lane?(so far out of 6 games eu lcs had,we saw 12 doran shields in bot lane)
Innovation is not a problem.


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Keikomatsui

Senior Member

01-15-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Actually, even with your spin on it, that logically makes complete sense. I think you just made the point for me.

Support characters should support. SOLO SUPPORT CHARACTERS DON'T HAVE SOMEONE TO SUPPORT.

Is that clearer?
OP was a bit silly, but I think he's trying to make a point.

Some of us really liked supports in a solo lane, as a carry mage. Lulu, for example, was really cool mid because you got to use your e for more interesting q positioning. In support thats WAY riskier because you're tossing away a shield. Janna mid was also really interesting because she had strong waveclear but very little real combat potential, making her a roaming mid.

But, then those were sorta pushed aside (according to the OP) since they were, after all, "supports". Some people, myself included, were a bit bummed out by this but I, at least, figured "hey, Riots trying to balance bot lane and since thats where they're the most played it makes sense".

But then, the gold changes came and some of those supports were hurt again, while some (Like Leona, who is literally a god right now) got even stronger without very many, if any, noticeable nerfs to offset that power. Lulu's Q already did what it was supposed to, and adding that AP=Utility thing just felt like it was hurting mid-lulu even more while also hurting bot-lulu (just one example).

So, yeah. Supports are "supports", sure. But it just hurts some of us who really loved those older, more "traditional" supporting champs to see their already strong counterparts buffed or remain the same (Thresh, Leona) while our helpful mage-friends are shoved aside for what feels like a mostly unsuccessful (but REALLY COOL in theory, I cant stress that enough) attempt to make utility a scaling concept instead of just a flat.