@ Morello can you actially go into detail as to why Irelia is "poorly" designed.

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Irelia Bot

Master Recruiter

12-29-2013

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Originally Posted by PapaSmurfsShaft View Post
She didn't cup morello's balls when she sucked. So he has gone elsewhere for love.
I blame syndra for that. But back to the original question.


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Irelia Bot

Master Recruiter

01-14-2014

Bump because Morello is on.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-14-2014
1 of 9 Riot Posts

Irelia's not a special case to me, but a representation of the problem that many fighters have overall - you bring power to the table, and your function is to outpower everything in terms of raw effectiveness.

Let me give you a little history lesson on fighters from the old days;

Originally, melee consisted of mostly true tanks and melee carries - Yi and Tryndamere to be exact. Quickly, the latter category really was phased out by ranged AD who could do their jobs, and better. Sure, melee did more damage, but with itemization, the damage wasn't meaningful enough to make up for the extra risk incurred by melee ranged attacks.

The team saw this and wanted to solve it. After a few attempts and one successful champion launch on this front, Garen, Xin was released. Xin was our first true love letter to melee (Garen was more designed to be a straight-forward champion).

And oh, what a love letter it was. Xin was tough as a nail, bursty as an assassin and had chainable CC. Our solution was to try to give them everything we could to make up for the melee nature. While Xin's tuning was absurd on launch, the formula worked in the "here's how melee can be viable in LoL." The problem is that approach left us little we could do to adjust playbalance outside of power and numbers.

All-the-while, we were continuing to launch champions at a break-neck pace. I started at the Miss Fortune patch, and I think while she was launching we had 6 other champions almost done at that time. I'd be surprised if Irelia wasn't kit-locked already by then (hard to remember as I'm old now).

So, we kept on keeping on - Irelia, Renekton, J4, half of 2012, etc etc. All the while, these melee were enjoyable, people were playing them, we saw some new trends with the S1 switch - lots was looking up.

The problem was that we didn't have nearly the sophistication with understanding what effect this would have on the game long-term. We'd all get different insights and peeks into it, but never anything to change course. It was really in the end of 2011 (after a very storied Volibear development) where we went "OK, what the **** is happening here."

Now, we get into last year and up to today. Fighters have these problem more than even (Hi, Riven!) and they all live in a world where any of them that don't are completely useless. In the short-term, we try to play whack-a-mole to keep it in check somewhat, but it's a bit of a futile battle - as long asone champion has this problem, no others can show up with interesting stuff, meaningful weaknesses, or a laning phase that doesn't have everything.

And our balance was going this way on fighters too - Nasus' eventual rise from trash to god, Jax's two redos, etc. Our long-term desires were directly being fought by the actual reality. So while we knew we wanted to fix it, we didn't want to, say, release Vi in a state where she wasn't playable. I think it's a pretty harsh kick in the dick to make something really exciting and then go "jk she's bad forever" because we made her in line with what we think fighters should be, rather than what they are.

So, "Better Nerf Irelia" is just a representation of why fighters break League of Legends, and in the abstract sense, we have a lot of old stuff that does it.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty much fed up with that state of the game as a designer. I want to go hard. I want to reconstruct this stuff. There's no way we can start making interesting characters in these lanes when you get a ton of tool variety, reliability, power, and stats for just playing your character competently. Meanwhile, something that takes nuance and hard work is just bad - because his competition for power is so high, there's no way he can be in that space.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

01-14-2014

Before reading this I'm going to go get some cookies and milk. I'm then going to stream my reaction to this giant wall of morello hates melee. Then I'm going to come up with something that I could convince people is Morello's fault but probably isn't, but is still believable that it could his fault.


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Sorioku

Senior Member

01-14-2014

Morello is singing chords of my soul today. No h


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

01-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
For what it's worth, I'm pretty much fed up with that state of the game as a designer. I want to go hard. I want to reconstruct this stuff. There's no way we can start making interesting characters in these lanes when you get a ton of tool variety, reliability, power, and stats for just playing your character competently. Meanwhile, something that takes nuance and hard work is just bad - because his competition for power is so high, there's no way he can be in that space.
Less talking more doing. You aint got the cojones.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-14-2014
2 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Before reading this I'm going to go get some cookies and milk. I'm then going to stream my reaction to this giant wall of morello hates melee. Then I'm going to come up with something that I could convince people is Morello's fault but probably isn't, but is still believable that it could his fault.
Hehe

I think fighters are the worse in this, but ADC (via items and some kits) and assassins have similarly patterned problems. Mages have tool overload, and I think mobility creep is out of control too. All on the hit list.

I'm OK if someone quits with rage over "my champ got nerfed a lot", I'm not OK if someone quits because "eh, League is getting boring" - the road we'll be on if we don't do something about it.


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

01-14-2014

On that note, what about Trinity force? It's the Irelia of items (hue) and despite the cute tons of damage jokes, I really don't get why it deserves to exist any more than fighters do. It either has to be so over tuned that something to the effect of 3 classes can use it off of fragments of the stats, or feel so weak that t's unappealing to everyone but exactly those fighters that don't deserve to exist.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
The team saw this and wanted to solve it.
You know what you have to do Morello: Nerf ranged damage.

Marksmen can have a role in the game, it just can't be hyperdamage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So, "Better Nerf Irelia" is just a representation of why fighters break League of Legends, and in the abstract sense, we have a lot of old stuff that does it.
I would say it's not fighters themselves, it's double scaling on that style of kit.

Fighters tend to get both offense and defense for a certain amount of exp and gold, while other classes usually must choose offense or defense.

That double 'acceleration rate' may lead to harsher snowballs.


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Morello

Lead Designer

01-14-2014
3 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
On that note, what about Trinity force? It's the Irelia of items (hue) and despite the cute tons of damage jokes, I really don't get why it deserves to exist any more than fighters do. It either has to be so over tuned that something to the effect of 3 classes can use it off of fragments of the stats, or feel so weak that t's unappealing to everyone but exactly those fighters that don't deserve to exist.
Can't argue with that. Again, though, for the world we're in today, it makes sense to have the "good" item for that, but not in where I'd like to go. What if Trinity was about getting three procs that you tried to use and maximize that required skill?