Yasuo is now at a comfortable 50% win rate

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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

01-11-2014
11 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophirr View Post
I think Yasuo makes a strong case for the idea that League of Legends is suffering slightly from a 'mobility creep' from it's newer champions. (Before you say it, Jinx has her passive).
I've always found "mobility creep" to be an odd choice of words. Would you say that we are suffering from downward "point-and-click stun creep"? It's no secret that we tend to favor some element of mobility in our newer designs. It's also no secret that we tend to favor fewer point and click stuns. Personally, I feel mobility is very helpful for the following reasons:

First, champions with mobility can be given a lot more weaknesses, particularly when it comes to durability and reliability of CC. Nasus/Darius/Mundo etc. have to be more or less able to buy 100% defensive items in order to be viable. There are only so many Patchwerk-style DPS tests we can put into the game. Additionally, we can provide a lot less reliability to other elements of their kit when we add dashes to champions. Nasus Wither, Nunu Ice Blast, and Sion Cryptic Gaze are not our best spell designs, but are required for these champions to be able to close the gap against ranged champions since in the absence of reliability in their CC they would die to ranged basic attacks should they ever miss a skillshot.

Second, mobility makes the game more volatile. Ever played Udyr against Ashe? You just slowly lose. Mobility allows for the sort of rapid turn arounds or engagements that can swing fights drastically in the blink of an eye. That is exciting and adds an element of unpredictability to the game. Lower mobility champion encounters often "end" well before one champion dies, because the outcome becomes obvious.

Third, mobility limits the problem of fighter stacking. Historically, when the metagame shifted to low mobility fighters, it shifted waaaay toward low mobility fighters. This is because champions that crowd control their enemies in order to reach them are highly symbiotic. Mundo loves a Nasus Wither, because it allows him to gap close freely and spam Cleavers from melee. Nasus loves a Mundo Cleaver hit because it means he can close to Wither range with 100% certainty and from there he's tough to stop. When we give our melee champions mobility instead of CC, they all have to use their mobility skills to reach the enemy backline and so can be balanced to be satisfying and effective on a team that is otherwise comprised of ranged champions and can be given more specific synergies than "is melee".

Additionally, I'd like to make a few observations about mobility.

First, the game will always grow most in the directions it hasn't yet grown. This is almost a tautology. Our early designs tended to be relatively immobile. Our subsequent designs tend to be relatively more mobile because we want to give players novel experiences. Since mobility, and kit designs made possible by mobility, were not well explored on release, it is only natural that we would flesh that area of design space out more fully as the game continues to evolve. We've also evolved the game in other directions including novel sorts of skillshots, new methods of casting, etc.

Second, mobile champions do not actually crowd out non-mobile champions. We are currently seeing a ton of powerful but immobile champions dominating the scene in every position except the jungle (where wall hopping is currently highly favored). Mundo and Shyvana are arguably the defining top laners at the moment alongside highly mobile champions like Renekton. Orianna is the most consistent mage since we nerfed Karthus earlier in the season (and Kayle will likely be the next dominant mid), alongside the mobile Gragas/Kassadin. Draven, Jinx and Sivir, who have MS boosts but not dashes, are dominant AD carries, alongside Lucian/Ezreal.

Finally, I would note that we are hopefully getting better at implementing interesting mobility skills. We try now to gate movement in ways that create gameplay for the opponent. Jinx is slow as molasses, until the first kill. Yasuo is a flurry of motion, unless you isolate him from your minions. Rengar has infinite leaps, but only near brush. Even in the domain of free target dashes, we have consistently upped the counterplay to dash abilities over the past year. The most obvious recent examples are Vi, Zac, Lissandra and Aatrox, who all have a special animations/cast paradigms to allow for clever enemies to CC them out of their dashes.


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Easyaeta

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahri desu View Post
Compare Yasuo to ahri, ahri has much lower winrate and also gives much less to the team. She is also MUCH higher skill floor than yasuo, and a player like Faker can get a penta on yasuo easy. He does way to much aoe damage with dash q combo. Hes MUCH better version of Yi.
Sorry I had to stop reading here, you're a ****ing moron


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LululuCawCaw

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
That's possible. He's certainly a very powerful champion, but then again champions should be powerful.
Everytime CertailyT designs a new champion, I remember that line.


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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I see this posted a lot. Mana is only one way to gate a champion.

In the case of Yasuo, the resource gate on spells is actually inverted. Yasuo is gated by the NEED to act. If the Yasuo player is not successfully casting Q and E, he's falling behind -- Q builds stacks toward his knockup. E builds his passive. Each of them also leaves Yasuo vulnerable. In lane, Q starts at a 0.42 second cast time and E alerts the enemy to his exact position in 0.6 seconds (the time of the dash). Using those momentary losses of control to your advantage as the opponent can help you land skillshots or reposition against him. In team fights, the need to build Q stacks requires Yasuo to find targets (like the Wraiths, minions, or enemy champions that move into his team's lines) before he can cast his more powerful Q3. The E requires him to move around in a fight to keep his passive working, making him less of a target chooser and more of a target taker.

He also has no inherent sustain, rare for a melee, and most of the time is short range, allowing him to be harassed. We could have given Yasuo mana, bumped his durability/regen up a ton, and given him long range waveclear tools, but instead we made him manaless, fragile, and short ranged. Personally, I think this was the right choice as health as a resource is something that the enemy actually has control over. Mana regen is mostly a function of itemization. It should be more satisfying to maintain proper range while harassing Yasuo out of lane than to build enough armor that Pantheon cannot kill you with spears before OOMing.

That's not to say that resourceless designs are not more stressful to fight against than mana driven designs. Mana-based champions can be tied by avoiding their damage. Resourceless champions must be defeated through offensive action. Creating the proper amount of stress is an important part of design and really hope that Yasuo has the vulnerabilities to make players feel like they can find opportunities to defeat him through skilled ability use, which in turn should make the added stress worthwhile.
I'm sorry CertainlyT, but I cannot accept this.

Lets take the very basic idea that mana, as a resource is a long term limit on ability use. It is the simple act that you have a finite number of spells to cast before you can cast no more. Now, the relative power between auto attacking and spells determines how severe being OOM is. It's not too bad for an ADC, it's a deathwish for a mage.

Now, on almost every single champion bar Udyr and Annie, abilities have a higher effective range than auto attacks. This means that when moving around in lane, the person who has the longer ranged abilities has the higher damage potential. However, the majority of these champions do not attempt to cast spells on cooldown, as they must manage their resource. Thus, the real limiter is which champions have both low resource costs and ranged damage.

In toplane, the majority of champions are melee, so to apply real damage they must close or use a spell. The ability to stay at range and apply damage is so absurdly powerful that it will almost automatically win lane. The only thing that would stop you is if the enemy becomes tough enough to power through the damage or you run out of resource to apply the damage. You might see a correlation between these traits and who is good top. Hint, it's champions who are tough enough to power through damage, while being resourceless to continually apply their own.

In midlane, the majority of champions are ranged, but their auto attacks do not hurt. Thus, spells are the go to damage dealing method, with any kind of semi frequent use, mages will run out of mana. At this point, they are useless, and an opponent who still possesses the tools to deal damage has no threat.

Quote:
Resourceless champions must be defeated through offensive action.
So why have you made the utter blunder of tuning them to automatically win trades through minion mechanics, and the ability to use all their abilities without regard for long term resource costs.

I hate fighting against a resourceless champion, because it gives me, as a player no satisfaction to dodge a skill. Oh, I dodged Zeds skillshots. It's not like he won't be able to fire them on cooldown and force me to keep dodging forever. Resourceless champions will always attempt to damage you the second you come in range, continually while you are in range, and the only way to end this pile of damage coming in is to leave range.

Their abilities are all over tuned, and if you sat down and ran the numbers against a mana champion, you'd see over say, 10 minutes of play, their damage potential is stupidly, amazingly higher. This can be negated by the mana champion returning to fountain, but that gives the resourceless champion free CS or damage on turret.

You have Mana gated champions, who work. You have health gated champions who also work, for the most part. You have energy champions who do not work at all, as they suffer no penalty to their all in ability for spamming skills, but do suffer from repeated all ins. Finally, you have resourceless champions who not only suffer no penalty for spam, suffer no penalty for repeated all ins.

You claim Yasuo falls behind if he doesn't spam. What a crock. His Q is easy to stack, takes no time to stack, and suffers no penalty for poor use. He can use it, or he can not use it, and nothing really happens. His E is another example, it's a mobility tool, sure, but in lane the contribution to his flow is so low that there is no difference between using it and just walking over there.

Yasuo suffers no penalty for using his skills, and suffers no penalty for not using them

Want an example of a champion who is properly penalise for not using their skills? Rumble. If they are not using their skills enough, they do less damage. However, if they mindlessly spam, they are penalised.

Grow some backbone and make champions on health, fury, energy and resourceless champions actually think about their skill use. Because as it stands, the inlane decision to "should I use a skill" is always yes.


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Uratoh

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Since T's here, how are the thoughts on changing his Q's visual animation? It's always quickcast, so while you have ways to see how far it actually goes out (mousing over the button, for instance) the visual itself extends a good teemo beyond the actual hitbox of the ability. While the move 'looks' cool it creates an artificial learning curve as you have to 'figure out' exactly how far his move will actually strike...the hitbox ending somewhere between the tip of his sword and the end of the 'flash' effect.


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Thales

Senior Member

01-11-2014

I very much agree about Yasuo's need to act being a resource. He has flow in more ways than one.

Yasuo isn't mana gated. He's not cooldown gated either. Q and E are limitlessly spammable, and even R has virtually no cooldown late game. W has a conventional cooldown model, but it's not nearly as central to his mechanical identity as the others. Basically, Yasuo needs to use his skills to do anything. He can't just get in someone's face and auto attack them like Yi or Fiora or Trynd can, because he's not as inherently sticky. He can't just go off on his own and push towers either. If Yasuo isn't constantly using his abilities, he may as well be AD Maokai. Sure, you can always use your abilities, but you must always be using your abilities.


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MP44 Rommel

Member

01-11-2014

Look Man

it's not as if Yasuo is completely constraint by combat

it's not like if he isn't in combat he loses health

Your resourceless champions simply HAVE NO COSTS

that's all there is to it. There is vast inconsistency with Fiora and Darius who fall under your "pure melee combat high risk only"

If you truly wanted to design a resourceless "pure combat" champion that is actually gated by gameplay, you would make someone with very low base damages or defenses, but these would increase the more they attack a target or stay in combat.

Out of combat, these bonuses decay extremely fast, thus forcing players to make active decisions on whether to stay in combat or not. The clear distinction here is that if they lose these bonuses, they lose a MASSIVE amount of their power. You may disagree with this extreme, but without such a gamble, there is no point of making resourceless champions other than to feign creativity.


As it is, Yasuo simply runs on nothing and throws away free damage at no cost. To make matters even worse, he gets a shield out of movement. No Riot, "time" is not a cost.

At least with rumble you tried to prevent him from spamming into non choice overload

What the hell is Yasuo and Riven


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Ahri desu

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaeta View Post
Sorry I had to stop reading here, you're a ****ing moron
okay. I guess your saying ahri is just UP and yasuo is balanced?


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Not gonna lie, Yasuo is one of those champions I'm glad is regarded as bad. That way I don't have to play against him much. Not because he's strong, but because he's not fun to play against.

My problem with him is his windwall. I don't mind 1v1 situations, but in teamfights... His windwall can negate 100+ second cooldown ults at random. I don't mind this if it's planned on the part of Yasuo, but there's nothing more infuriating than losing your ult because Yasuo threw his windwall at someone else, or even just threw it randomly to try to get lucky (and does).

Watching your Nami or Syndra ult disappear because Yasuo happened to throw his windwall toward your caitlyn at that moment feels REALLY BAD.

The solution is pretty simple: have windwall be targeted. It only blocks that champion's projectiles. Buff him somewhere else to make up for the drop in power. That's fine. This on skill is just so anti-fun right now...

Also, his Q feels like it's a lot shorter than the animation - I've heard a lot of people share this thought too. Either the animation should be shortened, or the range should be extended.


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Ophirr

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Mobility creep isn't necessarily an issue, it's just an observation. There is a lot more than mobility that affects the power level of a champion. It just brings up the question of what tools do immobile champions need to deal with a large number of highly mobile champs, which is a question I think will become more prominent when looking at champion reworks/tweaks of champions such as Sion, Yorick, Kog, Mordekaiser, and friends (because you can't just slap mobility onto these guys, as much as I would enjoy playing a Mordekaiser with a gap closer). And hey, thanks for taking the time to talk to us about Yasuo, who is one of the most impressive champion releases of the year (everything about him is just awesome).