Yasuo is now at a comfortable 50% win rate

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Best Brand NA

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
This isn't what we've observed. Yasuo players tend to have to properly manage all of their resources (Flow, Q stacks, W/R cooldowns) to win lane. It's possible that we are wrong, but that doesn't seem the case based on direct observation and quantitative analysis.
something i notice while playing yasuo is that using quick cast on his q when he has his 2 stacks it dosen't go off unless you do it slowly which ruins the point of smart cast.


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Fisherman Fizz

Senior Member

01-11-2014

I think his E's damage potential early is really high. There's also no real obvious indicator to the other player that his E is fully charged and going to hit really hard, I've seen a lot of people in game get confused when his dash ends up taking out over 100 health from them at level 1/2 even though it doesn't look that powerful visually. I wouldn't mind seeing the rank 1 damage go down a bit or at least adding some kind of visual to show when he has stacks on his E and is going to hit hard with it.


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Kiyoish

Senior Member

01-11-2014

A few things that you might want to watch for about imo.

1. Like you said his level 1-2 is might be too strong, 1 primarily against melee and 2 against ranged.

2. His shield might be stacking too fast late game, not much to say other than it might be too big or stacks too fast.

3. Just general hit boxes and wind wall mechanics.

Overall I thought Yasuo was going to end up around 50% win rate after the beginning influx of release. I like his design as it's a very good balance between self-sufficient and team dependent and a fun mobile design. Very nice job CertainlyT, can't wait to see the next releases.


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Ophirr

Senior Member

01-11-2014

I think Yasuo makes a strong case for the idea that League of Legends is suffering slightly from a 'mobility creep' from it's newer champions. (Before you say it, Jinx has her passive).


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Doctor Tam

Senior Member

01-11-2014

I still feel that Yasuo is just waiting to break out like Lee Sin did in Season 2. His dash is pretty huge, and he can be quite the nuisance if a comp is built with him in mind. I think he's actually not that great of a solo queue champ.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

01-11-2014
10 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MP44 Rommel View Post
Hello

can you please stop making resourceless champions. They have far more non-choices than meaningful decisions to make in gameplay.

What is the actual drawback that Yasuo has for being resourceless? He is pure output with little to no input

it's certainly not "long cooldowns" It's certainly not itemization, and it's certainly not a mechanical limitation of his playstyle.

"hur dur he melee and very aggresive in the thick of the fight" cough Fiora Darius
I see this posted a lot. Mana is only one way to gate a champion.

In the case of Yasuo, the resource gate on spells is actually inverted. Yasuo is gated by the NEED to act. If the Yasuo player is not successfully casting Q and E, he's falling behind -- Q builds stacks toward his knockup. E builds his passive. Each of them also leaves Yasuo vulnerable. In lane, Q starts at a 0.42 second cast time and E alerts the enemy to his exact position in 0.6 seconds (the time of the dash). Using those momentary losses of control to your advantage as the opponent can help you land skillshots or reposition against him. In team fights, the need to build Q stacks requires Yasuo to find targets (like the Wraiths, minions, or enemy champions that move into his team's lines) before he can cast his more powerful Q3. The E requires him to move around in a fight to keep his passive working, making him less of a target chooser and more of a target taker.

He also has no inherent sustain, rare for a melee, and most of the time is short range, allowing him to be harassed. We could have given Yasuo mana, bumped his durability/regen up a ton, and given him long range waveclear tools, but instead we made him manaless, fragile, and short ranged. Personally, I think this was the right choice as health as a resource is something that the enemy actually has control over. Mana regen is mostly a function of itemization. It should be more satisfying to maintain proper range while harassing Yasuo out of lane than to build enough armor that Pantheon cannot kill you with spears before OOMing.

That's not to say that resourceless designs are not more stressful to fight against than mana driven designs. Mana-based champions can be tied by avoiding their damage. Resourceless champions must be defeated through offensive action. Creating the proper amount of stress is an important part of design and really hope that Yasuo has the vulnerabilities to make players feel like they can find opportunities to defeat him through skilled ability use, which in turn should make the added stress worthwhile.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
This isn't what we've observed. Yasuo players tend to have to properly manage all of their resources (Flow, Q stacks, W/R cooldowns) to win lane. It's possible that we are wrong, but that doesn't seem the case based on direct observation and quantitative analysis.
I guess I'm drawing a distinction between Yasuo managing his resources properly and his opponent beating him at all three. I've been taking it as a given that the Yasuo is playing his champion competently. And that kind of Yasuo seems to be able to leverage losing one minigame into winning the others handily.

For example, let's say you want to deal with his Flow. Well, you try to poke him, back off, poke again. If you don't, you probably won't be able to kill him at all unless he overcommits (which is a misplay on his part, not his foe doing something clever). Yet he can spend upwards of 50% of his time sitting on his Q knockup if he spams it off cooldown, giving him incredible zoning potential without the Annie downside of being unable to use his other skills during this time. As such, you not only have to keep trying to poke him, but you have to manage that while also avoiding his Q knockup, which becomes harder to do the closer you get to him (his EQ combo is even intentionally very difficult to dodge, as you said earlier).

Ok, you might say to yourself, I'm not going to deal with Flow. I'm just going to try to burst him down. Now in addition to having to burn through Flow, you also get to have your combo disrupted by his W. Again, assuming the Yasuo is playing competently, he can W while your projectile is in the air and it'll get absorbed. Nothing you can do about it, you just have to try to bait his W out and then engage again while it's on cooldown, which is fine except most champions don't have a combo-ending cooldown that needs to be watched like that.

Fine, I'll just ask for a gank from my jungler, you think. Well, good luck with that. Putting aside that many junglers begin their ganks with a projectile, your jungler entering lane increases the number of dashes Yasuo has available to him, which means the jungler needs to gank at a sub-optimal angle or risk giving Yasuo a free escape. And of course, you don't get to see which minions he can still jump to so you just have to remember which ones he's used recently or he'll just use them to escape instead. You can't block off all escape routes so you have to essentially try to predict ahead of time where he'll go and coordinate that with your jungler, then hope he doesn't do something fancy like Q3 backwards, R and kill you, then dash past the jungler to safety.

Again, I want to stress that I'm not saying he's overpowered, nor am I even really saying he lacks counterplay (though his W's a bit light on it). I'm saying his counterplay requires a much bigger mental investment on the part of his opponent than the counterplay for most other champions. I still think we haven't really seen him played at his full potential but when we do, it's going to be almost impossible for someone of equal skill to deal with it without other parts of their gameplay suffering. Yasuo is difficult to play, but most of his kit can be committed to muscle memory. It's much harder to get muscle memory for playing against a champion.

So basically, I guess I'm saying Yasuo places an abnormally high burden of knowledge upon his foes if he's played competently, but really it's more a high burden of attention. Kinda like playing against Blitzcrank, except your counterplay options don't involve Blitz punishing you potentially harshlly for trying to take advantage of them.


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Ahri desu

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I see this posted a lot. Mana is only one way to gate a champion.

In the case of Yasuo, the resource gate on spells is actually inverted. Yasuo is gated by the NEED to act. If the Yasuo player is not successfully casting Q and E, he's falling behind -- Q builds stacks toward his knockup. E builds his passive. Each of them also leaves Yasuo vulnerable. In lane, Q starts at a 0.42 second cast time and E alerts the enemy to his exact position in 0.6 seconds (the time of the dash). Using those momentary losses of control to your advantage as the opponent can help you land skillshots or reposition against him. In team fights, the need to build Q stacks requires Yasuo to find targets (like the Wraiths, minions, or enemy champions that move into his team's lines) before he can cast his more powerful Q3. The E requires him to move around in a fight to keep his passive working, making him less of a target chooser and more of a target taker.

He also has no inherent sustain, rare for a melee, and most of the time is short range, allowing him to be harassed. We could have given Yasuo mana, bumped his durability/regen up a ton, and given him long range waveclear tools, but instead we made him manaless, fragile, and short ranged. Personally, I think this was the right choice as health as a resource is something that the enemy actually has control over. Mana regen is mostly a function of itemization. It should be more satisfying to maintain proper range while harassing Yasuo out of lane than to build enough armor that Pantheon cannot kill you with spears before OOMing.

That's not to say that resourceless designs are not more stressful to fight against than mana driven designs. Mana-based champions can be tied by avoiding their damage. Resourceless champions must be defeated through offensive action. Creating the proper amount of stress is an important part of design and really hope that Yasuo has the vulnerabilities to make players feel like they can find opportunities to defeat him through skilled ability use, which in turn should make the added stress worthwhile.
why didnt you answer my question... I tried so hard to type that whole essay out. I will re-post it brb.

Yasuo, sure you can dodge his tornado for counterplay, but what is Yasuos risk of throwing those to the enemy? If you come close you die, if you try to farm he harasses you, and bullies you. If your ranged and trying to poke, his sheild will block, or the wind wall will block it. You lose mana and yasuo loses nothing.

Late game, he two shots every champ. He is mobile and can two shot while being tanky. Like what? He gets too much damage for building tanky after getting static shiv and ie. 100% crit with two items.

His winrate of 50% proves he isn't a high skill cap champ but a low skill cap with low skill floor. If many can do so well with Yasuo in all elo, it means he is way to easy to use. Compare Yasuo to ahri, ahri has much lower winrate and also gives much less to the team. She is also MUCH higher skill floor than yasuo, and a player like Faker can get a penta on yasuo easy. He does way to much aoe damage with dash q combo. Hes MUCH better version of Yi.

What was the point of releasing such a broken champ to block all skill shot, while skill shots are super hard to even let it land? Are skill shots actually going to be a thing in the s4? Are skill shot champs going to be buffed so Yasuo will be the preventer of them being too strong? Honestly, I find skill shots really bad now, as it doesnt even give much reward for landing it. Yet releases a champ that counters it all.

Also how do you think of ahri? She got nerfed to be balanced because she had too much free damage. But what about the mastery nerfs she recieved? What happens if you nerf a balance champ through changing the meta? It will be UP. This is the reasons she is never used in OGN. As less snowballing=longer games. Longer games mean late game champs are a thing now. Which they dont deserve to be late game status if they were 0/10 in lane.

Also can you release a champ similar to ahri in the near future? A high skill cap champ that will always be used in high elo, doesnt get nerfed to the ground from being a good pick to tier 1 pick. I find ahri really bad in solo que and not enough damage to carry easily counter picked, and weak late game and weak early, probably better in team ranked, but who plays team ranked with skype with great synergies?

Are you going to buff the snowballing? Many early and mid game champs relied on their strength in those parts of the game to be able to be useful later late game. But after making snowballing worse, the late game status always reaches, thus what is the point of playing those early-mid game champs when you can 100-0 with two hits because you will hit late game anyway. Champs like anivia is an example of this. She has a strong laning phase, but not too strong. And late game reached sometimes and sometimes it did not. When she reaches late game however, if she lands a stun and one of her skills, your just dead no matter what.

If your going to enforce roaming, than how is less snowballing be any use? Roaming was to help win other lanes, so they can also snowball. If they cant even snow ball, what is the point of roaming? If you try to take the tower, mid tower will be taken and mid tower is way important than bot and top. I just want to know snowballing was one of strategies of games. If you cant snowball, outplayed early, you deserve to never come back. The game is too forgiving at this moment.


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Not Commando Yi

Senior Member

01-11-2014

it'd be nice if yi could reach a 50% win rate

in bronze....


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Ahri desu

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Commando Yi View Post
it'd be nice if yi could reach a 50% win rate

in bronze....
tell me about it. Ahri doesnt even have 50% winrate in diamond... Not in any division...