@Certainly T. Plans for zyra?

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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

01-11-2014
7 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIOLENTxSHINOBI View Post
For an extremely powerful long range mage why does her ulti have such a short cast range? Even when the AoE indicator is cast half way past the range indicator is pretty much engage range for a ton of popular picks right now.
Because her ultimate is a counterengage tool. Zyra and her plants poke you to death with the threat of rooting and knocking up enemies foolish enough to wade past the plants to her.

As to plant durability, I think it's in a great spot with the notable exception of AoE DoTs, such as Anivia's R, Singed's poison, or Miss Fortune's Make It Rain. Plants die way too fast to those. We need to design a system to differentiate those from single target DoTs and single application AoEs that can be implemented at reasonable cost and which doesn't impose excessive burden on future designers. I'll work on that!


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BlueHydra

Member

01-11-2014

So I have been playing a lot of support Zyra, Lulu, and Nami, and I can honestly say they all suffer from the same problem when I play, that duo fights or 3v3s with junglers involved almost always leads me to be killed, or having to stick so far back that the best I can offer is the grasping roots, one Q at best (on Zyra),and for Lulu/Nami their QWE's and then that's it. Any attempt to get further int he fight to help autos or use exhaust or try to tank some spells for my lane partner and I'm gone.

To specify the issue I'm having with Zyra though since this thread is on that, I find that the choice between her E plants and Q plants isn't one I find making often. More often than not the 30% slow procs once at best, and if I try to set up a plant with E its most likely going to be dodged because of how obvious that combo is, while the Q and W combo results in more damage and is a lot harder to predict.

She loses a lot to the strongest two supports in my eyes, Thresh and Leona, and when it comes to straight comparisons, Annie wrecks way harder with a stun over a snare and much more reliable damage and threat. Trying to zone as Zyra is incredibly risky and hardly worthwhile at the moment as one moment of getting caught, which a lot of other supports can do very solidly (ie, Thresh, Leona, Annie, and to some extent Nami if they are skilled, but that is much rarer to go against),that the options i have are very limited in lane as her spells don't seem to offer enough early on unless you make a very, very solid trade early on and zone with the help of an ADC that can do it with you to protect each other (like Draven, Ezreal, or Sivir).

So I don't know, I find myself really struggling with Zyra, but when I play champs like Thresh and Leona I can very easily win the lane, even against Annie.

Some Bolded points to sum up what I'm saying:
Yes, fratility is an issue, but I feel the issue stems more from the amount of lockdown other tankier, burstier supports bring really exasperates it

Zyra feels really useless when behind, because its hard to win the psychological war of how far up they can be safely when you are squishier than memory foam, leaving them to zone you with ease

Her combo with plants is extremely predictable with the snare, and overall the snare based plants that gain slows seem worthless incomparison to the damage and burst offered by Q.


The only thing I can suggest is perhaps a very, very tiny HP per level boost to keep her competitive with other tankier supports as they build tank and naturally scale to be durable, and maybe increase the speed of the snare if it hits a plant. Thanks in advance for reading CertainlyT.


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sylvanas valeria

Senior Member

01-11-2014

I don't know how this happened but when I played zyra, her death animation did not happen in the entire game she just stood still. Sorry if this is the wrong forum just wanted to say,


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0zone

Senior Member

01-11-2014

What does Zyra in the mid lane bring that Orianna doesn't?


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Hellioning

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Zyra's problems, I find, is that she's squishy in a meta that is all about bursting people. Being easily bursted is very much a weakness in the current bot lane, and it doesn't matter how long range you are, if Annie can flash + ult you you're dead.

And she certainly can do damage mid. I got owned by a mid zyra two times that I can remember in the last few weeks, though I will admit I misplayed badly in one (hey, I'll charm and orb her!...o**** I'm rooted O**** WHEN DID SHE HIT SIX) She's probably not the greatest, but she's viable enough mid to me.


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Linna Excel

Senior Member

01-11-2014

CertaintyT, why can't Zyra evolve like the bug? It'd be cool if we had more champs with optional growth and differentiation paths.


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VIOLENTxSHINOBI

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Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Because her ultimate is a counterengage tool. Zyra and her plants poke you to death with the threat of rooting and knocking up enemies foolish enough to wade past the plants to her.

As to plant durability, I think it's in a great spot with the notable exception of AoE DoTs, such as Anivia's R, Singed's poison, or Miss Fortune's Make It Rain. Plants die way too fast to those. We need to design a system to differentiate those from single target DoTs and single application AoEs that can be implemented at reasonable cost and which doesn't impose excessive burden on future designers. I'll work on that!
Fair enough. I probably should have worded my question in a different manner since I understand it is a counter engage tool. What I really mean is: why is her Ulti reserved for such a counter intuitive mechanic? If she is a long range mage why make her Ulti (typically a defining ability for a champion) in such a manner?

As an aside, with Flash and so many gap closers/dashes nobody really gets hit by the popup anyway, they just take the frontloaded damage (at least when I play her lol).

EDIT:
Think Darius or Yasuo Ulti's here. They define the champ in a lot of ways and work not just well, but symbiotically with the rest of their kits.


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Cancer Fizz

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning View Post
Zyra's problems, I find, is that she's squishy in a meta that is all about bursting people. Being easily bursted is very much a weakness in the current bot lane, and it doesn't matter how long range you are, if Annie can flash + ult you you're dead.
just do what everybody else does and start dorans shield(am completely serious,this is what zyra did in the single game of ogn she was in).


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Jolan

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Senior Member

01-11-2014

I really enjoy playing Zyra. She's really fun, despite her issues. So I'll share my thoughts and ask some questions towards CertainlyT.

I feel like her latest nerfs were supposed to balance out her bot lane role but only made me weaker in the mid lane (where I enjoy playing here more-so). In fact, I just feel more unsafe in regards to picking her in such a situation. So I've stopped doing it.
-Any plans to reintroduce Zyra mid?

I think the bugfix on W makes a real change - now I can double-seed and trigger both seeds with 1 spell, whereas before I couldn't do that, since for some reason the W wouldn't spawn the 2nd seed on time, or at all.
-Did this bugfix affect her power level invisibly? Was fixing it a reason for some of the nerfs?

Nonetheless, the Q range nerfs really hurt her safety in lane - previously lanes as Lux were entirely skill vs skill, but now they feel like I'm on the losing side from the get-go. Not to mention the damage loss makes it so I need 500 ap to compensate for it? I really wish for this nerf to be reverted, since it was one of the core reasons for mid zyra's downfall, I think.
-Any chance of undoing the Q nerf?

W's CDR was overly strong, yes. It's free stats on her. But the loss of it is also felt - her kit natively had this CDR before, which means that all her skills receive an invisible cooldown nerf that didn't get offset with any sort of buff? Furthermore, seed timer is also affected by CDR, this change made it so you get seeds a lower rate. For a champ who ENTIRELY relies on this mechanic to get their damage out, isn't this a huge nerf to Mid Zyra (compared to Bot Zyra who uses them as wards and slow-machines)
-Are you looking into lowering her CDs because of this? Or maybe just her Seed Timer?

Plants seem entirely balanced to me, but I always feel that their AI should be a bit closer to Heimerdinger turrets. They do attack the closest target and they do focus on the target of your autoattacks, but whenever I summon plants while being attacked, there's no guarantee that they'll focus my offender.
-Is it possible to make plant AI aggro the champion attacking Zyra, trying to protect her in a way?

I really enjoy Zyra's fragility and lack of mobility, it fits the theme of a plant mage. Of course, if she can afford it, building bulk and MS via items is possible, but should this be encouraged? My personal vote would be on No, since circumventing one of your base weaknesses like that seems like a cheap move. But if it's possible, some options might be given to Zyra with just a simple change.
-Should Zyra's plants Autoattacks trigger effects that trigger on Zyra autoattacking? (ex Furor Upgrade, Spellthief)

Regarding the ult fix, where it used to stun on landing, I agree this wasn't fair and possibly overpowered. But it was one of the ways to guarantee that enemies remain long enough in plant range so that your plants can get enough autoattacks off. While plants did gain a buff to AA damage, it doesn't feel quite...gratifying? In a way? I'm unsure how to express it.
-So, would it be possible to give plants a higher %AS steroid if they get ulted, while also applying the AS Steroid bugfix treatment (where targets affected by an AS steroid immediately feel the effects rather than after the 1st attack post-acquiring the buff) ?

Passive talk, I get it entirely - ability deals true damage, passes through targets and activates upon death, while also having a long range. Fair to use. Got nerfed, more fair to use. However, I still feel a huge issue lies within - if you select a direction to fire during the 2s lockdown post-death (after you die, before you can shoot), you cannot change direction via repeating the command BEFORE this lockdown ends.
-Is it possible to fix this direction lock, or is it working as intended?

I think that's all the questions I can think of. I would be grateful if you could answer them, CertainlyT.


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0zone

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
As a result of these, even in a state of balance, a lot of people will subjectively feel that Zyra is weak. If you feel as if Zyra doesn't offer a lot to her team, is incapable of dealing damage, or just lacks the tools to succeed, it's entirely possible that Zyra just isn't the champion for you. One of the most unfortunate aspects of her being over-tuned on release is that players developed an attachment to her for reasons that were not long-term sustainable and as such feel weak when the champion ends up being balanced.
I understand that she was too strong on release and then got hotfixed. What I dont understand is the nerfs that came over a year after to her mid lane even though during that time she did not dominate solo queue or competitive play in the mid lane.