Yasuo is now at a comfortable 50% win rate

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Dokusei

Senior Member

01-11-2014

CertainlyT PLEASEEEE tell me that you are changing his q so that it will always fire in the direction you aim your cursor in.

I hate when steel tempest becomes a skillshot the minute it fully stacks


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Definitely thought a lot about this concern. What motivated us to make the change anyhow was that the poke, wait, engage strategy against the shield is intended to become less relevant as the game progresses. In lane, being ulted is generally a result of the enemy's poor decisionmaking and so with proper management of Yasuo, it shouldn't be a huge issue.
Hmm. Then wouldn't it make sense to scale the Flow gain with rank? Something like 33/66/100%? Level 6 is still the laning phase for most champions, though level 11 generally isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
As to Yasuo having too many mini-games, I will agree that counterplay manifests on a number of axes (axises?). This is intentional as I feel it makes Yasuo less binary in his matchups. Different champions (and players) are able to better perform at different mini-games, which means that even if your champion isn't good at one, you can focus on the other. As an example, champions without ranged attacks are weaker at poking through Yasuo's shield (e.g., Riven), but also can take more liberties with their positioning vis-a-vis their own minions since they are likely want Yasuo to close on them.
I like multiple sources of counterplay. I don't like when every single one of them is so crucial. Against a decent Yasuo, it takes a lot of effort to beat him at any of his minigames, but you still don't win the lane unless you beat him at all three while also beating him in trades with your own abilities, and of course farming. It just seems to require a lot more mental effort to play against Yasuo than virtually anyone else except possibly Lee Sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Personally, I find laning against Yasuo more enjoyable than laning against Garen (a champion with two primary axes of counterplay -- maintain range when his cooldowns are available; damage him periodically to prevent his passive from activating) or LeBlanc (shove the lane or she kills your side lanes) because of how many ways there are to improve against him and because my strategy often varies dramatically depending on my champion's strengths, but opinions may vary.
Garen and LeBlanc have some of the worst lane counterplay of any champions in the game, so I don't like setting them as the bar.

LoL is a game of juggling objectives; doing well means keeping track of a lot of gameplay elements simultaneously. The problem with champions like Yasuo (and, I'd argue, Lee Sin) is that they force you to expend a much larger percentage of your attention into tracking their kits than you do against the average champion. This constitutes a form of invisible power since that attention has to come from somewhere. So for example, when playing against Garen I can spend more time watching the minimap because I don't need to watch him quite as carefully which means I'm going to spot more ganks and tend to give up fewer kills. Conversely, I'm probably going to miss CS and react more slowly to ganks simply because there's a decent Yasuo in my lane (bad Yasuos are very easy to kill so they're rarely in lane anyway).


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Ahri desu

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Definitely thought a lot about this concern. What motivated us to make the change anyhow was that the poke, wait, engage strategy against the shield is intended to become less relevant as the game progresses. In lane, being ulted is generally a result of the enemy's poor decisionmaking and so with proper management of Yasuo, it shouldn't be a huge issue.

As to Yasuo having too many mini-games, I will agree that counterplay manifests on a number of axes (axises?). This is intentional as I feel it makes Yasuo less binary in his matchups. Different champions (and players) are able to better perform at different mini-games, which means that even if your champion isn't good at one, you can focus on the other. As an example, champions without ranged attacks are weaker at poking through Yasuo's shield (e.g., Riven), but also can take more liberties with their positioning vis-a-vis their own minions since they are likely want Yasuo to close on them.

Personally, I find laning against Yasuo more enjoyable than laning against Garen (a champion with two primary axes of counterplay -- maintain range when his cooldowns are available; damage him periodically to prevent his passive from activating) or LeBlanc (shove the lane or she kills your side lanes) because of how many ways there are to improve against him and because my strategy often varies dramatically depending on my champion's strengths, but opinions may vary.
Yasuo, sure you can dodge his tornado for counterplay, but what is Yasuos risk of throwing those to the enemy? If you come close you die, if you try to farm he harasses you, and bullies you. If your ranged and trying to poke, his sheild will block, or the wind wall will block it. You lose mana and yasuo loses nothing.

Late game, he two shots every champ. He is mobile and can two shot while being tanky. Like what? He gets too much damage for building tanky after getting static shiv and ie. 100% crit with two items.

His winrate of 50% proves he isn't a high skill cap champ but a low skill cap with low skill floor. If many can do so well with Yasuo in all elo, it means he is way to easy to use. Compare Yasuo to ahri, ahri has much lower winrate and also gives much less to the team. She is also MUCH higher skill floor than yasuo, and a player like Faker can get a penta on yasuo easy. He does way to much aoe damage with dash q combo. Hes MUCH better version of Yi.

What was the point of releasing such a broken champ to block all skill shot, while skill shots are super hard to even let it land? Are skill shots actually going to be a thing in the s4? Are skill shot champs going to be buffed so Yasuo will be the preventer of them being too strong? Honestly, I find skill shots really bad now, as it doesnt even give much reward for landing it. Yet releases a champ that counters it all.

Also how do you think of ahri? She got nerfed to be balanced because she had too much free damage. But what about the mastery nerfs she recieved? What happens if you nerf a balance champ through changing the meta? It will be UP. This is the reasons she is never used in OGN. As less snowballing=longer games. Longer games mean late game champs are a thing now. Which they dont deserve to be late game status if they were 0/10 in lane.

Also can you release a champ similar to ahri in the near future? A high skill cap champ that will always be used in high elo, doesnt get nerfed to the ground from being a good pick to tier 1 pick. I find ahri really bad in solo que and not enough damage to carry easily counter picked, and weak late game and weak early, probably better in team ranked, but who plays team ranked with skype with great synergies?

Are you going to buff the snowballing? Many early and mid game champs relied on their strength in those parts of the game to be able to be useful later late game. But after making snowballing worse, the late game status always reaches, thus what is the point of playing those early-mid game champs when you can 100-0 with two hits because you will hit late game anyway. Champs like anivia is an example of this. She has a strong laning phase, but not too strong. And late game reached sometimes and sometimes it did not. When she reaches late game however, if she lands a stun and one of her skills, your just dead no matter what.

If your going to enforce roaming, than how is less snowballing be any use? Roaming was to help win other lanes, so they can also snowball. If they cant even snow ball, what is the point of roaming? If you try to take the tower, mid tower will be taken and mid tower is way important than bot and top. I just want to know snowballing was one of strategies of games. If you cant snowball, outplayed early, you deserve to never come back. The game is too forgiving at this moment.


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Tumbleweed1

Senior Member

01-11-2014

anyone who thinks hes trash is retarded


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BlargCow

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Senior Member

01-11-2014

Yasuo is probably my favorite champion released last year, but I think he has a problem

He's one of the strongest mid-laners in the game. I feel it's against his design for him to be so powerful early on. If he's paired against a squishy mage there's almost nothing they can do vs his all-in potential at level 2 and there's no risk for yasuo since he can just dash away to an enemy ranged creep.

I feel like his shield regeneration rate needs to be slightly lowered early on to allow enemies for more windows to harass yasuo, since he is resourceless and unrelenting in his ability to dive and poke others


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Ahri desu

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlargCow View Post
Yasuo is probably my favorite champion released last year, but I think he has a problem

He's one of the strongest mid-laners in the game. I feel it's against his design for him to be so powerful early on. If he's paired against a squishy mage there's almost nothing they can do vs his all-in potential at level 2 and there's no risk for yasuo since he can just dash away to an enemy ranged creep.

I feel like his shield regeneration rate needs to be slightly lowered early on to allow enemies for more windows to harass yasuo, since he is resourceless and unrelenting in his ability to dive and poke others
Hes too strong mid laner for being too easy to play literally. I agree his sheild needs to be lowered. His cool down on q has to be increased. His critical boost should be lowered. His early game should be way weaker. Since he has a hyper late game, should have a weak early.

His ultimate should only be applied to his OWN knockup, not his teams. His dash should have a increased cool down, from 0.1 or w.e to 0.5, in order to increase counterplay of knowing he will come at you, not like instantly right in front of u with 100% bonus on dash. His wind wall should be reduced to 1.5 second from 3.

It is a nerf to balance a champ. Not to make them UP.


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Telosa

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerDrool View Post
So I've kind of felt that Yasuo is difficult to read and predict as an opponent. That to do well versus one you need a bunch of knowledge about Yasuo to manage it. Some of this is his flow mechanics and his reversal capacity but also the folly of chasing him. Consider Singed whom requires an opponent to know to give up the chase but doesn't have burst survival and damage like Yasuo.

Now that was just kind of a gut feeling. It also entailed a weird feeling something was "off" with his laning that made it hard to get a rythem going [versus him]. I just realized exactly what I was missing in an ARAM versus a Yasuo. He has 175 range....and doesn't look like he should at all.

Let me clarify here. Xin and J4 have 175 range. They have spears. Trundle, Riven, Vi, ETC have 125. Granted Riven jumps to 200 when she ults but that's a shiny ult effect and not a base range boost.

The extra range really gives Yasuo a chance to trade very well in an unexpected manner. He's simply hitting more then I would expect when I kite him. Now that I know I may be able to play around it but I figured the lack of readability may be worth bringing up.

PS:
I've glanced across melee champions. As far as I can tell Yasuo ties for longest melee range with two spear using champions. Given he usually keeps his sword in the sheath next to him and seems very small until he attacks...this really does feel off to me. I'm very surprised to learn he has a full 50 more range then the majority of melee champs. Including other supposed melee ADC...and he has that Q as a "psuedo" auto attack.
In Yasuo's defense, I'm fairly certain that he's using a nodachi - a sword that's as long as he is tall. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a guy carrying a sword that large to have as much range as Xin Zhao or J4.


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BlargCow

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Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahri desu View Post
Hes too strong mid laner for being too easy to play literally. I agree his sheild needs to be lowered. His cool down on q has to be increased. His critical boost should be lowered. His early game should be way weaker. Since he has a hyper late game, should have a weak early.

His ultimate should only be applied to his OWN knockup, not his teams. His dash should have a increased cool down, from 0.1 or w.e to 0.5, in order to increase counterplay of knowing he will come at you, not like instantly right in front of u with 100% bonus on dash. His wind wall should be reduced to 1.5 second from 3.

It is a nerf to balance a champ. Not to make them UP.
those changes are way over the top and unnecessary and would also make him a lot less enjoyable to play


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

01-11-2014
8 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlargCow View Post
Yasuo is probably my favorite champion released last year, but I think he has a problem

He's one of the strongest mid-laners in the game. I feel it's against his design for him to be so powerful early on. If he's paired against a squishy mage there's almost nothing they can do vs his all-in potential at level 2 and there's no risk for yasuo since he can just dash away to an enemy ranged creep.

I feel like his shield regeneration rate needs to be slightly lowered early on to allow enemies for more windows to harass yasuo, since he is resourceless and unrelenting in his ability to dive and poke others
Yasuo is designed to have a "Tristana-esque" power curve -- a strong level 1-3, a notable spike at 6, with a distinct trail off until he reaches his core items. I really like these sort of power curves across time because they mean that one player is sometimes the aggressor and sometimes not. Figuring out "who's the beat down" given a number of variables is one of the cooler aspects the laning phase.

That said, it's very possible that Yasuo's levels 1 and 2 are too strong. Too soon to tell at the moment though. At the moment, I think that with cautious play Yasuo is containable at these levels. I also think that Yasuo needs to play very cautiously himself the rest of the time.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

01-11-2014
9 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Tog View Post
I like multiple sources of counterplay. I don't like when every single one of them is so crucial. Against a decent Yasuo, it takes a lot of effort to beat him at any of his minigames, but you still don't win the lane unless you beat him at all three while also beating him in trades with your own abilities, and of course farming. It just seems to require a lot more mental effort to play against Yasuo than virtually anyone else except possibly Lee Sin.
This isn't what we've observed. Yasuo players tend to have to properly manage all of their resources (Flow, Q stacks, W/R cooldowns) to win lane. It's possible that we are wrong, but that doesn't seem the case based on direct observation and quantitative analysis.