Yasuo is now at a comfortable 50% win rate

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Vecuu

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Yes, the combo should be more responsive after next patch, though of course your circular Q will still be delayed until the end of the dash. Generally, the EQ combo is not intended to be strictly better than the Q by itself, but it should offer the player a choice in how they best perform their Q. In the mean time, smartcasting your Q should increase the reliability of the combo (especially EQ3) due to how the client handles sending and receiving information to and from our servers.
Understood. It's hard to beat an additional Auto-Attack reset, but I'm glad responsiveness will be improved.

Thanks for the response.


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Blaine Tog

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
You raise a relevant concern. However, the R is not an on demand move. If a player can set this up, they deserve to be rewarded. Since the core counterplay to Yasuo (Maintain proper spacing in the face of AOE knockups, CC, focus fire) denies his ability to refresh his shield, I'm not particularly nervous. I would also note that we as a design team shouldn't shy away from risky changes. The most cautious design choices are seldom the best. One virtue of running a live-updated game is that changes which turn out to not generate good gameplay can always be reverted.
My biggest worry about the Flow change is that it seems to invalidate a lot of his passive's counterplay. The whole idea is that you're supposed to poke him whenever it's up, wait for it to decay, then poke him while it's down, but now it just seems like you won't have those safer times to poke him post 6. He'll always be able to engage on you at full power, regardless of whether you've been playing the Flow minigame.

I dunno, his design just seems to have an excessive number of minigames for his opponent to micromanage. First you have Flow, then you have Q stacks, then you have to count which minions and champiopns he hasn't dashed to yet, then you figure out a way to play around Wind Wall. On the one hand, I'd be happy to not have to juggle yet another thing when playing against him, but on the other, that's only going to be because you auto-lose that minigame now post-6.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

01-11-2014
6 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nana A Deviluke View Post
This will always keep it useless unless the enemy team is grouped for a perfect E->Q AOE due to how it applies on-hit (nearest first, so red buff only applies to one person - as an example)

The fact I need to be close to use it means its only useful if I'm chasing - and the E->AA->Q feels more responsive/better to pull off. Especially if the enemy is near a creep and you need to proc the on-hit effects you may have..

There is never a time I feel rewarded for doing the E->Q. If the enemy is smart they just walk towards you as you dash and dodge the Q 80% of the time in a 1v1.


And thats coming from someone with well over 125 games played as Yasuo...

The EQ combo has a number of advantages:
1) It has no cast time, so does not impair your mobility. Real talk: While dashing through minions to catch an enemy, it's strictly better to EQ minions to build a stack toward your Q3 than to E...line Q. so your assertion that it's "never better" is just hyperbole.
2) Can hit multiple enemies not lined up, and so offers targeting flexibility.
3) Is less avoidable in a number of contexts. For example, if an enemy is near max dash range, they will more easily be able to avoid a regular Q than an EQ due to the narrowness of the Q. When I speak about EQ responsiveness changes I am referring to not having to mash Q immediately upon beginning your dash. With reasonably quick decisionmaking, you should be able to decide mid-dash whether you'd like to circular Q or save your Q for a post-dash line nuke.
4) It forces the enemy to adjust their counterplay, which can often put them in the position you want.

You have mentioned some of the disadvantages of the combo. Most of those just involve the enemy playing well, which is something we should reward, not punish.


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Wertilq

Senior Member

01-11-2014

MrT I saw you was looking over missiles, you should check out Nunu snowball.

I've met Nunu quite a few times as Yasuo, and blocking it is inconsistent you need to block it a lot earlier than graphics tells you to. I also noticed people flashing the graphical snowball, but still being slowed, and then hit by graphics after they already take damage and is slowed.

I assume this is because the physics and graphics of Nunu snowball doesn't match, that physics is much faster than graphics.
That or that you have some really wonky mechanics behind the scene.


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Kakakarot Cake

Senior Member

01-11-2014

o look... people finally figured out that shiv rush is retarded on yasuo BCUZ HE ALREADY HAS A SPAMMABLE Q CLEAR...


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X1zz3l

Member

01-11-2014

Yasuo offtopic question:
Why are you killing Rengar next patch and where is the new discussion thread for the rework that should've been up like 4 weeks ago? I'm kinda sad that you guys don't keep those promises or at least tell us that you can't make it in time... :C
I know that you're not responsible for him but I'd be thankful if you could forward this to Scarizard

Concering killing Rengar, please read this: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...ghlight=x1zz3l


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Madtop

Member

01-11-2014

Thanks for addressing us on this Certainly T!


Keep up the good work, and I'm interested on your opinions on Zyra atm.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

01-11-2014
7 of 11 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaine Tog View Post
My biggest worry about the Flow change is that it seems to invalidate a lot of his passive's counterplay. The whole idea is that you're supposed to poke him whenever it's up, wait for it to decay, then poke him while it's down, but now it just seems like you won't have those safer times to poke him post 6. He'll always be able to engage on you at full power, regardless of whether you've been playing the Flow minigame.

I dunno, his design just seems to have an excessive number of minigames for his opponent to micromanage. First you have Flow, then you have Q stacks, then you have to count which minions and champiopns he hasn't dashed to yet, then you figure out a way to play around Wind Wall. On the one hand, I'd be happy to not have to juggle yet another thing when playing against him, but on the other, that's only going to be because you auto-lose that minigame now post-6.
Definitely thought a lot about this concern. What motivated us to make the change anyhow was that the poke, wait, engage strategy against the shield is intended to become less relevant as the game progresses. In lane, being ulted is generally a result of the enemy's poor decisionmaking and so with proper management of Yasuo, it shouldn't be a huge issue.

As to Yasuo having too many mini-games, I will agree that counterplay manifests on a number of axes (axises?). This is intentional as I feel it makes Yasuo less binary in his matchups. Different champions (and players) are able to better perform at different mini-games, which means that even if your champion isn't good at one, you can focus on the other. As an example, champions without ranged attacks are weaker at poking through Yasuo's shield (e.g., Riven), but also can take more liberties with their positioning vis-a-vis their own minions since they are likely want Yasuo to close on them.

Personally, I find laning against Yasuo more enjoyable than laning against Garen (a champion with two primary axes of counterplay -- maintain range when his cooldowns are available; damage him periodically to prevent his passive from activating) or LeBlanc (shove the lane or she kills your side lanes) because of how many ways there are to improve against him and because my strategy often varies dramatically depending on my champion's strengths, but opinions may vary.


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Nana A Deviluke

Senior Member

01-11-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The EQ combo has a number of advantages:
1) It has no cast time, so does not impair your mobility. Real talk: While dashing through minions to catch an enemy, it's strictly better to EQ minions to build a stack toward your Q3 than to E...line Q. so your assertion that it's "never better" is just hyperbole.
2) Can hit multiple enemies not lined up, and so offers targeting flexibility.
3) Is less avoidable in a number of contexts. For example, if an enemy is near max dash range, they will more easily be able to avoid a regular Q than an EQ due to the narrowness of the Q. When I speak about EQ responsiveness changes I am referring to not having to mash Q immediately upon beginning your dash. With reasonably quick decisionmaking, you should be able to decide mid-dash whether you'd like to circular Q or save your Q for a post-dash line nuke.
4) It forces the enemy to adjust their counterplay, which can often put them in the position you want.

You have mentioned some of the disadvantages of the combo. Most of those just involve the enemy playing well, which is something we should reward, not punish.
1) Q has next to no cast time with even a small amount of AS. The cast animation is insignificant once you finish Shiv. Especially if you're smart enough to run AS reds over standard AD/ArPen reds.

2) It also puts you, as a squishy, into the middle of the enemy team. If you so much as happen to miss the enemy Draven or maybe even their tanky Malphite with your AoE - you died. You don't want to be that close.

3) Or you can E to them, get the AA off, then Q. The AA will guarentee any on-hit effects you may have (namely red buff in most cases) are applied to the target instead of some random minion. This can also affect Sheen procs or the BOTRK on-hit or if you're getting fancy, Frozen Mallet. A missed Sheen proc due to E->Q'ing and the proc not hitting the intended target since it hit the minion behind you that was 'closer' is a horrible feeling.

4) It's good for zoning them away from their creep wave. That's the best use I've found for it.

Quote:
Is less avoidable in a number of contexts. For example, if an enemy is near max dash range, they will more easily be able to avoid a regular Q than an EQ due to the narrowness of the Q.
Both of them have 475 range. The E to close distance is often slower than the cast animation of Q and you can animation cancel the Q with your E. So you can Q->E->AA->Q->AA->Q rather than E->Q->AA->AA->Q. This small difference/animation cancelling often makes a huge difference.



Most of the time I E->Q I do it by accident. If I could control when in the E I use my Q it would be much better. Even if the window was only at the halfway point until the end of his dash.


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Bambouské

Member

01-11-2014

Something that bother me is his lvl1 power. The champion is supposed to be weaker early because of how strong his midgame is (once you have IE/shiv). But right now the fact that he gets a strong aoe aa reset in addition to a shield makes him a heavy lane bully at lvl1-2 which is problematic since at that time junglers are generally doing their buffs so he is free to make use of this strenght and kinda win the lane already.

Also the fact that he can both negate ranged spells with the wall and absorb damage with the shield makes him a bit too strong at trading early on. I think the value of his shield should be toned down at low lvls to allow a bit more counterplay during lvl1-3.

I'm fine with the rest of his kit tho.