Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Crownface

Senior Member

07-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortferngatr View Post
And to further hammer home that anti-fun does not equal boring, I bring you Rengar. Super-fun for the player, but the anti-fun experienced by Rengar's opponents is even greater. Riot has admitted repeatedly they ****ed up when they greenlighted his final design.
Rengar, Jayce, Elise, Zac, Diana, Aatrox, Kha'Zix...

They're all pretty badly designed (in terms of League's original design philosophy, at least). They are all champions that have huge issues when it comes to false choices. Attacking them is the wrong choice because they have strong disruption and great defensive mechanics, including a delayed revive on Aatrox and Zac, but choosing to not focus them is wrong because they do a bunch of damage. Running from any of them is the wrong choice because they have gap closers/other chasing mechanics, but standing and fighting is the wrong choice because their burst damage is so high. There is no right choice to make against any of these champions. I hate playing against Yorick as much as anyone else, but at least you can choose to run from him since he has very limited chasing potential compared to all of the champs I listed.

This thread is extremely outdated and Riot's design philosophy has changed considerably since it was posted.


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Netteh

Senior Member

07-22-2013

Burden of knowledge

That's exactly why you made aatrox heal X% more when lower than 50% health without any warning :|


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Fellathar

Senior Member

08-09-2013

After reading all the post by Zileas I realized he knows a LOT of abilities on the heroes they created are in direct contradiction to the so called "antifun" laws he wrote... and still they haven't changed most of those abilites... so I can say that the rules he wrote are nothing but bull****
I'm just gonna stick to my antifun DOTA2 that at least has a lot more variety... Not only your game is dumbed down to the ground but also the heroes are starting to become repetitive and boring. But then again Mr. Zileas will never accept the truth because of $$$


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AnonTwo

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Senior Member

08-19-2013

Hasn't been bumped in a week, seems like it'd be a good read seeing all the threads today.


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Frayace

Senior Member

10-10-2013

love you zileas


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Yakkers

Member

10-10-2013

I've been wanting to formally respond to this subject for a long time, on the "burden of knowledge" subject.
Using your example of Rupture, you're right, it brings a lot to the game. It's a really interesting ability, it gives the victim a spectrum of choice on how far if at all you should flee, or stay and fight.

But if you don't know how the ability works, that's going to frustrate you LITERALLY ONE TIME. Then you know how it works, and it's never an issue again. Now tell me, what do you think is more important - designing an ability around a one-time learning situation, or the perpetual gameplay for everyone that comes after?

I understand there's a desire for clarity, but calling Rupture burden of knowledge and removing interesting abilities like it that only need to be read about once or felt one time is just completely and utterly idiotic. Learning is temporary, playing afterwards is forever. Which would you rather play a game designed around?

I'd also like to point out that Riot's "anti-fun" crusade has gone way too far, the amount of streamlining that's been done to the game over the past few years is disgusting, even beyond anything that could realistically be called "anti-fun." It's totally insulting to the player.

Moving on to opinion here, I don't understand how mechanics like targeted stuns and long stealth is viewed as extra fun for the player and extra un-fun for the other. I think playing around heavy powerful skills like this is a lot of fun, it brings a huge level of planning and diversity to the game and each champion. It's not "anti-fun" if you also have equally unique and powerful skills that let you play around and counter theirs.


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SUPERIOR SK1LL

Member

10-21-2013

game devs around the world should learn this by heart


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

10-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakkers View Post
I've been wanting to formally respond to this subject for a long time, on the "burden of knowledge" subject.
Using your example of Rupture, you're right, it brings a lot to the game. It's a really interesting ability, it gives the victim a spectrum of choice on how far if at all you should flee, or stay and fight.

But if you don't know how the ability works, that's going to frustrate you LITERALLY ONE TIME. If you can't figure out how the ability works, it will frustrate you many more times. Then you know how it works, and it's never an issue again. Now tell me, what do you think is more important - designing an ability around a one-time learning situation, or the perpetual gameplay for everyone that comes after? Pursuing the second within the boundaries of the first. Lee Sin is fundamentally not terrible to play against if you're new. He can dash to kick what he hits with the sound bolt thingy, he can go to allies and shield them, he makes an AoE circle that does damage and maybe slows, and he makes a distinctive noise/bigger kicks stuff at level 6 to knock them really long distances. If I'm new, I can play against this without a guide. If I am InSec, I can do all sorts of ridiculous plays by combining his abilities. There's a rea sin Lee Sin is popular and seems immune to getting Eve'd/"Olaf'd".

Syndra is another example--she has a very high skill cap and incredible level 6 burst potential, but because she relies on manipulating very visible Dark Spheres in clearly readable ways, she offers very clear, intuitive options to her opposition and gets to have incredibly high potential as a result.

Anivia is similar to Syndra. You get to feel good for avoiding her Q and escaping her ult, Froggen gets to feel good for single-handedly carrying whenever the enemy doesn't ban her against him.


I understand there's a desire for clarity, but calling Rupture burden of knowledge and removing interesting abilities like it that only need to be read about once or felt one time is just completely and utterly idiotic. Learning is temporary, playing afterwards is forever. Which would you rather play a game designed around? The one I can understand without reading 25 guides--and can still understand in a hectic teamfight.

I'd also like to point out that Riot's "anti-fun" crusade has gone way too far, the amount of streamlining that's been done to the game over the past few years is disgusting, even beyond anything that could realistically be called "anti-fun." It's totally insulting to the player. except the new/inexperienced/casual ones. Get them into the fold, and some will stay and get serious about the game. Like me.

Moving on to opinion here, I don't understand how mechanics like targeted stuns and long stealth is viewed as extra fun for the player and extra un-fun for the other. I think playing around heavy powerful skills like this is a lot of fun, it brings a huge level of planning and diversity to the game and each champion. It's not "anti-fun" if you also have equally unique and powerful skills that let you play around and counter theirs.
Avoiding anti-patterns is fundamentally a matter of keeping entry barriers as low as possible.

If you can't utilize the BFG 9001 you don't know how to use yet and can't learn because the invisible Infinity+2 sword I can use and you don't know how to play against is slicing you to pieces, you are going to need plenty of games or a bunch of guides to understand what my invisible Infinity+2 sword is doing and how to fight it--all as you're still mastering the BFG 9001. And you might also be mastering other weapons/having to face other weapons. That can add up to a lot of "not fun" games before you really feel GOOD about playing.

Yes, I understand some players will tolerate early frustration in exchange for the extreme highs of incredibly unique gameplay--but that's why Dota 2 and HoN exist, to cater to that niche.

Hell, Dominion is arguably my favorite gametype, but I still tend to play ARAM more. Why? My Dominion MMR isn't at the point where everyone knows how to play (kassad.in quickfind OP), and I'm not always willing to risk ignorant allies playing poorly/mistiming Revive/"testing **** that would get them reported for intentional feeding on Summoner's Rift" for the incredible thrill of opportunistic point capture/defense, jungle control, teamplay, clutch saves/caps, and counterbuilding high-MMR/tournament/serious Dominion represents. Guess what the Dominion forum sees as the best way to improve the mode? Lowering the entry barrier. That's something avoiding anti-patterns fundamentally helps address, and it's why I think "streamlining" the map and making more things apparent in-game would go a lot farther in improving the mode than adding a tutorial.
I think this thread needs a big 2013/2014 overhaul (and perhaps a myths/misconceptions section, a "unique cases in League" section, and perhaps a "places where we legit ****ed up" section), especially given how much has happened since 2010 and how many Riot posts we'd need to read to really understand how the design philosophy is implemented.


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ZXZXZXZXZX

Senior Member

12-28-2013

Nice read


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An Upset Zombie

Senior Member

12-28-2013

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out before, but a HUGE burden of Knowledge is Veigar.

First of all, his Q, auto attack and ult all look pretty much the same.

Second, how are you supposed to know his Q gives him AP for last hitting without looking up the ability?

Third, his ult looks literally the same as his Q, and how are you supposed to know it deals damage based off of your OWN AP as well?

So much hypocrisy in this post, but I guess it is REALLY REALLY old though.