I've accepted Shyv nerfs will happen

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Siigari

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Senior Member

12-06-2013

So let me get this straight.

Do we want AD carries to do massive amounts of damage while having little personal defense?

Do we want mages to have strong AOE damage and great CC?

Do we want assassins to actually be able to assassinate targets?

Do we want tanks to be able to stick to their designated target requiring the enemy team to actually attack them which reinforces the fact as to why they built tank in the first place?

Do we want supports to help the team out with utility and unique auras?

Riot?


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Noctis Lunaris

Senior Member

12-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
So she out-duels you, and you don't actually get away from her.

Isn't this the exact same issue Vayne has?

You can't 1 v 1 her, and she gets bonus MS for chasing, which is doubled when she pops her ult. She also builds BORTK, like Shyvanna, so running away from a Vayne is justa futile as running from a Shyvanna. The only difference is Vayne is ranged and can self-peel when **** hits the fan.


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Tweeks

Senior Member

12-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The problem with "just kite" is that she actually doesn't get kited. 1,000 range move block, almost always up movespeed boost, even tends to build things like BotRK, Randuin's, Phage, or even Frozen Mallet to further prevent it.

So she out-duels you, and you don't actually get away from her. That's why she's getting played in all the pro/challenger scenes (I'm literally watching her banned against Quantic right now), wins more often than she loses on the live servers, etc.
Phreak, given this, what do you guys have in mind for her? Even though she has little utility I find it so satisfying being able to ult into the middle of the enemy team and quite literally pull all their attention towards me. From the sounds of your post you're not happy with her current state, but I'm terrified that any nerfs could totally invalidate her given that she has so few levers to pull. She's got damage, movement speed, and tankiness. That's really it. Even then, her movement speed buff isn't really on-demand. It's her only chase and primary damage source in her kit.

I love Shyvana - she was the first champion that I learned to jungle with (and this was before I was level 30). I really don't want things to go back into a state where I get called a troll for picking her in the jungle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siigari
Do we want tanks to be able to stick to their designated target requiring the enemy team to actually attack them which reinforces the fact as to why they built tank in the first place?
I think this is a really good statement to consider. She's not like a Maokai or someone where once their CC combo is down, everything is on cooldown and you can largely ignore them. Shyvana doesn't have that CC to begin with and her damage should demand that the team actually deal with her. Olaf has a very similar gameplay role and he got totally destroyed with his initial round of nerfs way back. Shyvana was quite weak for a very long time (basically all of season 3). Isn't it ok for her to be back in the spotlight again?


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

12-06-2013
2 of 3 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by Mr Schtiffles View Post
Urgh... I can't find these streams, can you linky? I wanna watch too :|
http://www.twitch.tv/wellplayed


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

12-06-2013
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siigari View Post
So let me get this straight.

Do we want AD carries to do massive amounts of damage while having little personal defense?

Do we want mages to have strong AOE damage and great CC?

Do we want assassins to actually be able to assassinate targets?

Do we want tanks to be able to stick to their designated target requiring the enemy team to actually attack them which reinforces the fact as to why they built tank in the first place?

Do we want supports to help the team out with utility and unique auras?

Riot?
New AD Carry comes out. 9,000 range. 1,000,000 damage. 1 hp.

Overpowered or underpowered? Fits your description to a T.

The extent to which champions do things is important. Shyvana clearly identifies as fighter. No one's calling her a tank, mage, support, or marksman. However, making the argument "Just stun Riven" or "Just kite Shyvana" is inaccurate and too narrow in scope.

If a champion is too good at what it does, it can be balanced while still performing its role. Look at Ahri: She ends up dealing the same damage, contingent on landing a skill shot, and went from "must-play" to "worth playing."


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SOyProasfasdfdsa

Senior Member

12-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
New AD Carry comes out. 9,000 range. 1,000,000 damage. 1 hp.

Overpowered or underpowered? Fits your description to a T.

The extent to which champions do things is important. Shyvana clearly identifies as fighter. No one's calling her a tank, mage, support, or marksman. However, making the argument "Just stun Riven" or "Just kite Shyvana" is inaccurate and too narrow in scope.

If a champion is too good at what it does, it can be balanced while still performing its role. Look at Ahri: She ends up dealing the same damage, contingent on landing a skill shot, and went from "must-play" to "worth playing."
Bro Phreak, are there some garen buffs for s4, bug fix, or something? He feels so bad to play He falls off hard.

His ult has a really high cd 160 seg (), and does magic damage.
I guess he needs only his spin to retain his essence, then you can adjust the kit to offer more utility.

Maybe he can use mana, or skillshots, just to prevent the stomp in low elo .


He easy to play that`w why he struggle to be viable, he needs to offer more cc or presence after lane, he can`t even counter renekton and riven


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Tesla23

Member

12-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
New AD Carry comes out. 9,000 range. 1,000,000 damage. 1 hp.
The answer is always Karthus


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TootlesTheGoon

Senior Member

12-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
The problem with "just kite" is that she actually doesn't get kited. 1,000 range move block, almost always up movespeed boost, even tends to build things like BotRK, Randuin's, Phage, or even Frozen Mallet to further prevent it.

So she out-duels you, and you don't actually get away from her. That's why she's getting played in all the pro/challenger scenes (I'm literally watching her banned against Quantic right now), wins more often than she loses on the live servers, etc.
Go away Phreak, you're a Vayne fanboy. Don't talk balance.


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SOyProasfasdfdsa

Senior Member

12-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TootlesTheGoon View Post
Go away Phreak, you're a Vayne fanboy. Don't talk balance.
woah calm down, vayne is not queen anymore, jinx is


and lucian is king.


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xJLx MCHammer

Senior Member

12-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
New AD Carry comes out. 9,000 range. 1,000,000 damage. 1 hp.

Overpowered or underpowered? Fits your description to a T.

The extent to which champions do things is important. Shyvana clearly identifies as fighter. No one's calling her a tank, mage, support, or marksman. However, making the argument "Just stun Riven" or "Just kite Shyvana" is inaccurate and too narrow in scope.

If a champion is too good at what it does, it can be balanced while still performing its role. Look at Ahri: She ends up dealing the same damage, contingent on landing a skill shot, and went from "must-play" to "worth playing."
Wow!

SO what you are saying is
- Lets nerf a Op champ
- Lets forget about the fact that her Ultimate is one of the buggiest abilities in the game
- Lets forget that she has almost no CC

Also, it's clear that she can be kited. Nearly any champ she needs to get like an ADC will find it very hard to catch up to them. It doesn't matter whether or not you can run fast. Most DUESLIST have a form of CC that Shyvana lacks. The only good thing about her is movement speed and damage. Remove that and you have a champ who RENEKTON can easily match with,

Seriously how can you justify a nerf to Shyvana when champions like renekton can get as tanky, CC, and nearly as much damage throughout the game