Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Schokcha

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Or, you could do the same to Master of Orion 2 and get Master of Orion 3, and it would be a better game.
The same can be said about the relation of MoO and MoO 2 (still a good game and some nice additions, but much unnecessary micromanagement). Come to think of it, MoO is the oldest game I still play from time to time, very elegant and fun.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Falleth

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Seriously, you think Starcraft has any strategical depth ? It does have it, but not much at all. Dota, with balanced gameplay, would have twice (if not more) strategical gameplay.
Because 10-20 competetive picks has more depth.

Oh wait.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Klidus

Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
***EDIT: Added a bunch of new patterns.****

False Choice -- Ineffective Choice
Similar to above, except when you give what appears to be an interesting choice that is then completely unrewarding, or ineffective at the promised action. An older version of Swain's lazer bird had this failing... Because the slow was so large, you could never run away in time to de-leash and break the spell and reduce damage, and in cases you did, you'd just dodge 20% of the damage at a big cost of movement and DPS -- so running was just an ineffective choice.
So kinda like Every Garen who buys boots at level 1 and spins you to death cuz you cant get away from him? Unless Every person on your team is expected to buy boots just to counter it?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WhattayaBrian

Engineer

11-27-2010
137 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by AychAychAych View Post
FPS games have it easy, you know everyone has a gun. Guns shoot bullets, they kill you.
Fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AychAychAych View Post
In a fighting game you don't need to guess will that kick suddenly cause somekind of scripted status that will kill you in situation B under spell A. It hits you, BAM, you take damage.
Wait what. Fighting games are probably the most complicated genre of games with the highest burden of knowledge out there. I think the last released version of GG had four different types of blocking: Normal, FB, IB, and SB. Every move has startup, active, and recovery frames, as well as different cancel points for different moves. Each character's hitbox is different, meaning certain combos won't work for certain matchups.

I mean, I love LoL, but credit where credit is due. Fighting games just trounce everyone else in terms of up-front complexity.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Thinkaman

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indexus View Post
Seriously, you think Starcraft has any strategical depth ? It does have it, but not much at all. Dota, with balanced gameplay, would have twice (if not more) strategical gameplay. Still I won't agure about complexity of spells - it's bad, but dumbing them down for the sake of it is just wrong.

"SATISFYING experience" != Fun. Fun is really biased thing - People are satisfied, because they win a game, they don't need fun with it. Others find it fun, when they built AP Olaf and stomped the game, while others want to score billions of kills.
There are even weirdos, who enjoy an even, balanced game, but MM can't provide it.

Building a satisfying game isn't exacly the same as a fun game.
I can't tell if this post is supposed to be sarcastic or not. I'm really hoping it is.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Amadi

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Well, there's this game called Starcraft. and it's really easy to understand and avoids this anti-pattern heavily. And it has as much or possibly more strategic depth than DOTA... just saying...
Have you.. Played starcraft?

We are talking about a game where it is fundamental to know the common timed pushes of your opponents. When it is important to remember every feature of the map to know which ones can be exploited. When you need to be able to deduce opponent's build order by seeing how much gas is missing from their geysir.

We are talking about the game that has one of the highest learning curves of all time. If anything, Starcraft has ridiculously high burden of knowledge attached. You need to have knowledge on how to counter cannon rushes on map X, and you also need to know when not to counter them and just give up your hatchery. If you react twenty seconds too slow, you lose. If you react wrong, you lose. And no, you don't know what your opponent is doing. You know he built gas before his rax. And you need to be able to know what builds do that and deduce what he is doing.

And then you need to know the timing when he pushes out, and the ground distance on that map, and you need to time your defense perfectly, or you will be economically behind and lose.

Not only that, but in tournaments, seeing your opponent's name you should already be able to tell what kind of strategies they favour and how consistent they are. What time do they like to scout and how confident are they in their basic build orders. How likely are they to cheese, and if they are, on which game of the sequence?

No, after that comment I really do not believe you have ever played starcraft.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Letkhar

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Why is Zilean in this game?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

FuzionZero

Senior Member

11-27-2010

TBH Mushrooms are the single most annoying ability to me in this game. Mainly because it does so much damage at Lvl 3. 700 Damage + .8 AP Ratio. Even at full health a single mushroom can bring an average champions health to 3/4 or even more. Just a single little effortlessly placed stealth mushroom anywhere on the map. Be careful. Who knows how many more are out there hiding! And correct me if I'm wrong but Oracles won't help you see mushrooms in the bushes unless your in the bushes as well correct? Most bushes are so small that you can't enter it without hitting the mushroom. So unless the mushroom is out of the bushes AND you have Oracles AND you or someone on your team is ranged or has a ranged ability that can kill the mushroom there is little you can do against them. On top of all this they last for 10 MINUTES even if Teemo dies. I just don't understand how this couldn't be classified as Anti-Fun. Oh and don't forget. If your team is near by they will also receive this punishment. So this has the potential to cause 5x the amount of Anti-Fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
This is where the 'anti-fun' created on your opponents by your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?
Teemo: *Press R and place Mushroom* - How much fun was that?
Enemy: *Walks into bushes with a Mushroom. Takes 700+ Damage. Slowed. Seen by Enemies on Map.* How lame was that? 1/2/3/4 Teammates were near you and got the same punishment? Lame x 2/3/4/5.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

D3fence

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AychAychAych View Post
FPS games have it easy, you know everyone has a gun. Guns shoot bullets, they kill you.
And some people have hats, and special hats you can only get from a random dropped objects. and Items you can buy from a **** mirco transaction store


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tiziu

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-27-2010

Great thread, learned quite a bit from it!