These "anti snowball" changes are really stupid.

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Drew Martin

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Senior Member

11-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Making the game reward individual skill was actually the point of these changes. When they are finished and balanced I think that will become clear to everyone.
Yay, I really look forward to this. I suspected that these updates were not the final product.


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ice654

Senior Member

11-24-2013

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Originally Posted by IS11d6327cb35cafc124891 View Post
riot is stupÓd. It's mathematically impossible to shorten game with less snowball. It's called logic. If you decreased the snowball it make the game longer, if you increase the snowball it make the game shorter.
But he specifically stated that he wants to reduce team snowballing and maintain or increase individual snowballing. Seems to me there was alot of the former and not much of the latter. Speaking of individual snowballing, what exactly were the changes that catered to this? I can't really tell which of the changes increases the individuals ability to carry better


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-24-2013
5 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ice654 View Post
But he specifically stated that he wants to reduce team snowballing and maintain or increase individual snowballing. Seems to me there was alot of the former and not much of the latter. Speaking of individual snowballing, what exactly were the changes that catered to this? I can't really tell which of the changes increases the individuals ability to carry better

This is a pretty theoretical game design argument, but bear with me.

The game result of 'win or lose' comes from some set of things. They have to add up to a 100% control of the outcome. Lots of things go in -- team chemistry, counter-picks at champion select, mastery and rune choices, whether or not a champion is currently strong (or not), individual skill, good calls on team objectives, and so forth.

We believed that in season 3, early game kills snowballed the game but were not really super 'skillful' compared to other factors in the game. We also thought that a few good early plays on towers could sometimes secure the game -- and a few actions in isolation will be more random than consistent play. So, we decided to reduce the importance of certain early game actions that will tend to snowball teams (Tower kills, dragons, first bloods in the jungle fed to a 'snowballey' lane -- which is honestly a somewhat random, not as much skill-oriented result). From this, we expect that the importance of everything else to go up... because it has to add up to 100%, and we just subtracted something out.

So, by reducing team snowball early game, you must be increasing the importance of individual skill (along with other stuff).

Additionally, the gold changes we made should make it more possible for a support or jungle player to be the star player of their team.

An analogy I'd make is -- would the game have more or less skill if we flipped a coin at the beginning of the game and gave 500 gp to the winning team? Obviously, that would still be 'balanced' but would be a less skillful game. By cleaning out stuff that over-rewarded relative to the difficulty of doing it, we improve the relative rewards afforded to the things we all agree are important. Also, by making the game tend to reward consistent actions over a period of time, we will tend to favor the more skillful player.

- Zileas


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HeY x SeAn

Senior Member

11-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Zileas View Post

Additionally, the gold changes we made should make it more possible for a support or jungle player to be the star player of their team.

- Zileas
Hahahaahaha the bronze logic - Madlife


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skaggsste

Senior Member

11-24-2013

I'd rather this happen than that fed opponent continue to make stupid plays and get away with them...just because they are fed.
Seriously, if they outplay you first 10 minutes and you outplay them at 11-40 minutes, you should deserve the win. Snowballing sometimes made you helpless to do anything because of how much everyone else was ahead in items/exp.


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HeY x SeAn

Senior Member

11-24-2013

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Originally Posted by skaggsste View Post
I'd rather this happen than that fed opponent continue to make stupid plays and get away with them...just because they are fed.
Seriously, if they outplay you first 10 minutes and you outplay them at 11-40 minutes, you should deserve the win. Snowballing sometimes made you helpless to do anything because of how much everyone else was ahead in items/exp.
stupid play ... get away with it ... make some sense please ...


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The Shaco Bot

Senior Member

11-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
We believed that in season 3, early game kills snowballed the game but were not really super 'skillful' compared to other factors in the game. So, we decided to reduce the importance of certain early game actions that will tend to snowball teams (Tower kills, dragons, first bloods in the jungle fed to a 'snowballey' lane -- which is honestly a somewhat random, not as much skill-oriented result).

An analogy I'd make is -- would the game have more or less skill if we flipped a coin at the beginning of the game and gave 500 gp to the winning team?

Early you mentioned the fact of using a late game team comp as a viable strategy. My question is invading at the start of the game for first blood is reduced to a simple coin flip of a team randomly getting first blood and thus an advantage. However, is it not the team that got the first blood that outplayed the enemy team? It is a strategy of the same sort, to go for a risky fast play at start of game in order to get an early game champion into a good place as a fast as possible so that they can carry the game.

The team that invades makes a choice that if they do not end up getting that kill, most likely will then be behind in their lane. The other team did not prepare well enough, or react good enough, to stop it-thus they were outplayed and other team gains an advantage.

Why remove this it does not make sense. A coin flip and first blood are not the same thing. In a fair coin flip one person flips the coin the other calls it and it is 50/50 fair to both. In first blood it meant that one side did something better than the other so they benefit for it. Along the similar lines it could be said baron buff should be DRASTICALLY reduced because it isn't much skill to go kill a npc with limited actions, its like a coin flip 50/50 luck of who gets it.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

11-24-2013

Zilian, could you do me a favor? Could you direct a red in charge of the Jungle balance and feedback to this thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=4067160

Preety plz?


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-24-2013
6 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shaco Bot View Post
Early you mentioned the fact of using a late game team comp as a viable strategy. My question is invading at the start of the game for first blood is reduced to a simple coin flip of a team randomly getting first blood and thus an advantage. However, is it not the team that got the first blood that outplayed the enemy team? It is a strategy of the same sort, to go for a risky fast play at start of game in order to get an early game champion into a good place as a fast as possible so that they can carry the game.
It IS a skillful play. It's not a coin flip. However, it was over-rewarded relative to other skillful play that occurred in games. It would be sortof like if you made the first shot made in basketball be worth 10 points instead of 2 -- still skill-based, but will tend to cause more random outcomes and reward the better team with a win less frequently. This has the same net affect on the frequency with which 'the best team wins' as adding a small coin flip test.

Does that make sense? By bringing this back in potency a bit, we preserve the potential for people to utilize the skill that DOES exist there without washing out other skillful actions... Bringing them into balance essentially.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

11-24-2013
7 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
Zilian, could you do me a favor? Could you direct a red in charge of the Jungle balance and feedback to this thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=4067160

Preety plz?
Sure I'll email it to them.