Relic, Rakkor and Face of the Mountain

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PodunkTheMighty

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Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Is this a message from the future? Because I don't know what the Gelid is.
What about the Crown of the Rift, then? I understand we needed a dedicated top laner only item to allow more characters to top lane but I feel that the passive applying exclusively to melee-only champions who are male and wearing blue might actually limit the number of viable champions.


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Yrale

Junior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
We like that players are experimenting with the game. However, we want to make sure that whatever meta changes occur have clear trade-offs.
Hey Xelnath:

So, I get that the meta should be fluid, but why is it that Riot seems so unconcerned about the removal of an entire position when during S3 the game was nearly constantly being rebalanced to ensure that bot-lane ADC's remained not only viable, but completely necessary to a team compisition? Every other position and lane has gone through constant meta-shifts and seen different styles played (for example, the rise of assassins mid, things like Ryze and Karthus top, near-constant shifts in jungle meta), yet as soon as it looks like ADC has a potential competitor we have huge itemization changes?


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ThinWhiteDuke

Senior Member

11-23-2013

I don't understand the math being used. Over the course of 30 seconds its trivial to find a melee minion to trigger Relic Shield (in fact its actually less risky, as melee minions are naturally closer to the player than their ranged counterparts). If I still remember correctly that grants a base of 20 gold + 5 for a total of 25 gold generated every 30 seconds. That's 50 gold per minute or 8.3 gp/10, much more the 5 you provided. Combined with passive gold of 16gp/10 that totals 24.3 gp/10. At a rate of 24. 3 gp/10 the upgrade to Targon's (485 gold) requires 3 minutes 19 seconds.

Changed Relic provides half the number of charges or 20.15 gp/10. At a rate of 20.15 gp/10 it takes 4 minutes to afford Targon's. Really all you did was add 41 extra seconds to a 0 cs supports buy and then everything returns to current state. The reduction of a Targon's stack doesn't mean anything as more often than not the stacks are consumed immediately upon recharge. Switching is to melee proc only hurts the support- who has more trouble last hitting without the execute due to low ad.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

11-23-2013
11 of 13 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrale View Post
Hey Xelnath:

So, I get that the meta should be fluid, but why is it that Riot seems so unconcerned about the removal of an entire position when during S3 the game was nearly constantly being rebalanced to ensure that bot-lane ADC's remained not only viable, but completely necessary to a team compisition? Every other position and lane has gone through constant meta-shifts and seen different styles played (for example, the rise of assassins mid, things like Ryze and Karthus top, near-constant shifts in jungle meta), yet as soon as it looks like ADC has a potential competitor we have huge itemization changes?
The structure of the game, consisting of dangerous towers which must be destroyed, alongside the structure of teamfights is what guarantees the need for the Marksman. That said.... whaa? Nerfing one OP item is not huge itemization changes


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PodunkTheMighty

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Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
The structure of the game, consisting of dangerous towers which must be destroyed, alongside the structure of teamfights is what guarantees the need for the Marksman. That said.... whaa? Nerfing one OP item is not huge itemization changes
I'd say the massive overhaul of Jungle, Support, and Vision items count as 'huge itemization changes'. I like you a lot Xelnath, but I can't say I like this.


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Shinjusuke

Senior Member

11-23-2013

If you really were a jungle "main", rather than someone who just happens to like jungle champs, you'd be at least a little more concerned with the state of the game at the moment.
With the changes to supporting, it's getting all the attention, but at least they aren't having to justify that their role is even needed every time they're in champ select to the people who keep wanting to run duo top lanes.

Seriously. Jungling is in a SH**Y state right now. At least open up a thread to discuss it, every "red" thread is about supporting with regards to preseason. We can't play our role because it's in such an awful state.
Optional roles are good, sure, if all roles are optional. Jungling is the only one that the majority of the community will treat as optional, and that means all the people who want to duo top are just instalocking their top lane and forcing us out of a role. It's stupid and infuriating.


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Axiom Prime

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinWhiteDuke View Post
I don't understand the math being used. Over the course of 30 seconds its trivial to find a melee minion to trigger Relic Shield (in fact its actually less risky, as melee minions are naturally closer to the player than their ranged counterparts). If I still remember correctly that grants a base of 20 gold + 5 for a total of 25 gold generated every 30 seconds. That's 50 gold per minute or 8.3 gp/10, much more the 5 you provided. Combined with passive gold of 16gp/10 that totals 24.3 gp/10. At a rate of 24. 3 gp/10 the upgrade to Targon's (485 gold) requires 3 minutes 19 seconds.

Changed Relic provides half the number of charges or 20.15 gp/10. At a rate of 20.15 gp/10 it takes 4 minutes to afford Targon's. Really all you did was add 41 extra seconds to a 0 cs supports buy and then everything returns to current state. The reduction of a Targon's stack doesn't mean anything as more often than not the stacks are consumed immediately upon recharge. Switching is to melee proc only hurts the support- who has more trouble last hitting without the execute due to low ad.

I don't think any of the melee based supports have a problem with this. I.e. Taric, Leona, Ali...


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AFOM

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Xelnath, I'd like for you to talk more about the jungle. Seems to me, the Relic alone wasn't enough to kill jungling. It was the barrage of nerfs to the jungle which did most of the damage. I think the Relic could even stay exactly like it is, and jungling would make a full return with just a few buffs.

The Spirit items were nerfed. Masteries are worse for junglers (Bladed Armor can't kill?). Monsters hit harder, and are harder to kill. Offensive masteries are currently stronger in general than defensive. The wight camp isn't worth clearing unless you happen to be hovering in the area. The jungle tries to force you to farm more, but doesn't really reward the effort. Smite is better for farming, but weaker at securing objectives, making it more likely to get an objective stolen and therefore devaluing junglers' usefulness. Trinkets make ganking more difficult than ever before, and the totem trinket has a lower cooldown than the sweeper trinket.

I've done a few 20-minute pure farming runs, both before and after the patch, to compare. With the new items, you get slightly more gold, but the items are less gold efficient, and since the extra gold actually comes from the item passives, that means monsters have a lower base gold and it therefore takes longer to get those gold items. And you end up more than a complete level in experience lower than in the old jungle, with ~15 lower CS. Single-target clearers are even worse off than they were before.

I want to know what the plan is for the wight camp. I want to know how you're planning to make Wriggle's Lantern a viable purchase (because no one should buy it currently). What is the expected tradeoff for the increased difficulty and survivability of monsters? Currently, do you think junglers are actually in a better place than they were in s3? Do your stats show that junglers are actually getting significantly more (effective) gold than they were before, especially in relation to the support buff?

Another way to consider the problem: Why did you decide to put all gold generation for junglers into items? They can't buy the items before 10 minutes, which is when most of their farming occurs. And to balance the gold generation, you had to weaken their other stats to compensate. Surely there are alternatives to actually incentivize making a choice to farm more than you gank, like putting a "gold buff" on the wight camp which gives you bonus gold from monster camps for its duration? Or if it must be tied to an item (because Riot seems to think it's okay to force players to start with a certain item, but not with a certain mastery), maybe a stacking gold bonus on Machete (or at least Spirit Stone and Razor) which increases with each camp cleared within a certain period of time?


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vennomite

Senior Member

11-23-2013

So what items are we going to give solotop laners to balance out the income lost form having to 2v1. Because as it currently stands, the sololaner tends to be way behind the other two laners and might as well be a season 2 support. And as for the jungler helping them? HAHAHAHA, ganking is ridiculously hard with the spammable trinkets. Let alone invades not even being punishing anymore.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Xelnath, could you also make a discussion about the new season 4 jungles? I belive there is a lot that needs to be discussed, from how nerfed the items are, to the fact that invading as a playstyle has been removed, complications with early game ganking due to the damn trinkets, and how vicious the new jungle is to some weak Junglers.