Relic, Rakkor and Face of the Mountain

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LtSmashFSP

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Is this a message from the future? Because I don't know what the Gelid is.

Can we revert the all waves pushing with inhibitors down change? I know it is off topic but honestly I played a game today where the only way anything happened was with my efforts. I knocked 7 of their turrets on my own and every time the inhibs went down it was just me pushing and trying to get picks. I understand it is a team game but my rank is supposed to say what kind of player I am and being 100cs ahead of the ADC on the enemy team and handling the business but still losing because my team doesn't push doesn't feel good. I don't know maybe I am just being selfish but the game has gotten a bit harder but in a way that seems unnecessary.


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Xeynid

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Would i have done it differently? Probably. But this is fine for me.
nobody cares.


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Larronb

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Junior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Hey guys,

The initial item is just too powerful for its cost, because it has a level 2 income stream on a cheaper item.
If you are cutting it across all three tiers, doesn't that just swing the pendulum too far the other way? Yes relic shield currently has tier 2 gold income, but don't drop all of the items to tier 1. Maybe relic shield gets a stack every 60 secs, and then the upgrade gets a stack every 30.

Ancient coin's gold generation from minions doubles, AND gets gold per/5. Frostfang doubles both the stealing gold and the gold/5. I agree relic shield's gold is overpowered for tier 1, but not even the best for tier 2. Make it upgrade like the rest.


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NeoScout

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Senior Member

11-23-2013

just keep 2-1-2 lanes viable please


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Vsin

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Demiurge View Post
Any time you are sitting at max charges you are 0gp5, and Frostfang provides 4gp5. So, that's easy enough to prove.

I'd love to see your math on the ideal case gp5 of the item, used once in a lane, and how it is not less than the 12gp5 that Frostfang provides in the ideal case.
2 CS per 60 seconds.

Or, 60 GPM (2x Melee + 2x Passive bonus). If we include the Cannon minion, then it jumps to roughly 75 GPM after averaging it out.

Frostfang's 4 GP10 is 24 GPM.

Assuming that you're in a duo lane, never CS and can hit enemies every time the passive comes off cooldown, the harass active is 16 GP10, or 96 GPM, for a total of 120 GPM.

In theory, Frostfang provides twice the GP10 of a Targon. However, in case you didn't notice, the best case for Frostfang is addled with an absurd amount of conditionals. Please note:

- Even though the personal benefit of CSing a Lv1 Caster Minion is higher than 2 procs of Frostfang, the amount of gold GENERATED is still zero.
- Landing harass half a millisecond before the timer expires and not being able to follow up afterwards is enough to make the GPM of the Frostfang passive plummet. Simply count how often you get to tag your opponents with damage; I've played enough duo lanes to know that hitting both enemies every 10 seconds with no consequence just isn't going to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larronb View Post
If you are cutting it across all three tiers, doesn't that just swing the pendulum too far the other way? Yes relic shield currently has tier 2 gold income, but don't drop all of the items to tier 1. Maybe relic shield gets a stack every 60 secs, and then the upgrade gets a stack every 30.
That's how they're doing it right now - I've already tested it on the PBE so I can confirm it for certain. Only Relic Shield has the 60s CD; Targon is still 30s.


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Moose Loire

Senior Member

11-23-2013

How to solve shield problem, "If you have a relic shield, and your lane partner has a relic shield, don't let the passives work on each other." Have it just flat out not work on players who run double shield. Plain n simple. BAM! Item is fixed...


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Morgra

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Senior Member

11-23-2013

Wait, so Xelnath, since you're making it a melee-only item and it does affect Thresh since he builds it because it synches so well with him, will this force him to build the other Gp5 items? The other two just don't seem very favorable to him at all when you look at the Relic Shield series.


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Tobasco da Gama

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Is this a message from the future? Because I don't know what the Gelid is.
"Gelid" means "icy", so I assume it's a reference to the Frost Queen's Claim.


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Wicked Demiurge

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
2 CS per 60 seconds.

Or, 60 GPM (2x Melee + 2x Passive bonus). If we include the Cannon minion, then it jumps to roughly 75 GPM after averaging it out.

Frostfang's 4 GP10 is 24 GPM.

Assuming that you're in a duo lane, never CS and can hit enemies every time the passive comes off cooldown, the harass active is 16 GP10, or 96 GPM, for a total of 120 GPM.

In theory, Frostfang provides twice the GP10 of a Targon. However, in case you didn't notice, the best case for Frostfang is addled with an absurd amount of conditionals. Please note:

- Even though the personal benefit of CSing a Lv1 Caster Minion is higher than 2 procs of Frostfang, the amount of gold GENERATED is still zero.
- Landing harass half a millisecond before the timer expires and not being able to follow up afterwards is enough to make the GPM of the Frostfang passive plummet. Simply count how often you get to tag your opponents with damage; I've played enough duo lanes to know that hitting both enemies every 10 seconds with no consequence just isn't going to happen.

That's how they're doing it right now - I've already tested it on the PBE so I can confirm it for certain. Only Relic Shield has the 60s CD; Targon is still 30s.
Great post. My math was very slightly off. I agree that the best case scenario for Frostfang is pretty unlikely.

Nerfing relic shield but keeping Targon up there would be a good compromise fix. Relic shield actually is too good vs. the other tier 1's, pre-nerf.


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TuMalevolent

Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Is this a message from the future? Because I don't know what the Gelid is.

Lol^

On a serious note, do you feel like you have lowered the skill cap for CS'ing as an ADC? I feel like CS'ing was an important part of making it to late game. You could see the large differences in skill because of it, and actually allowed for comebacks from earlier setbacks. I like the first blood changes in early minutes, but I feel like (for lack of a better way to say this) skills and awareness have been dumbed down. In that i mean Cs'ing isn't as valuable of a skill when you get 2-8 free last hits per minute from relic/targons, as well as free wards. I wouldn't mind trinkets if they weren't free wards. I mean imagine for a second if you had simply sweeper or the seeker trinkets, and made it player responsibilities to buy wards, still at a 3 ward caps.

Additionally, I gotta say, jungle as was with the changes to jungle items would be nice (one can hope). The new wraith thing (Wight i believe) doesn't really benefit jungle. Jungle wasn't about having more camps. We could change the map and add 5 more camps, and decrease the experience accordingly. but in the end, if you need to be at least level 3 to gank, what you end up with is less time with red/blue buff during ganks because you spent more time in the jungle. (I hope this makes sense)


The thing i fear most going forward for this games evolution is the same absurdity that has plagued many many games is the developer attitudes that "once we made something we can't go back", in regards to trinkets and gold items and jungle changes.


None of this was made in disrespect, just my opinions, I like this game a lot, i've played since Season 1 and have bought more riot points than I'd like to admit lol. But you're alienating your old fans and making the game inconsistent.