Relic, Rakkor and Face of the Mountain

First Riot Post
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OneDragonArmy

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazikarl View Post
There was a substantial amount of professional tournament play on the preseason patch, and I certainly didn't watch all the games, but my understanding was that essentially all the teams were choosing to go 2/1/2 instead of having a jungler.

I find it unlikely that essentially all those pros have misread the strength of the relevant choice here.

And if you announce that you want people to have a legitimate choice whether or not they have a jungler on a team, I don't really see how you expect people to see that as anything other than an announcement that junglers are becoming optional.
You find it unlikely that people can make a mistake just because they are higher level. A good scientist with professional research quality in mind recognizes that he and his researchers are human and can make mistakes. Even the best of us can fall into trends, look at all the pros using Shyvana because of perceived strength.

Perceived is the key word, as the Relic items do not actually give you all that gold in the tooltip, half of it was a minion you killed. Experience and Jungle pressure still exist, so once the Relic shield's numbers are balanced, jungling will keep its pros and cons.


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Wicked Demiurge

Senior Member

11-23-2013

As a counterpoint, making it charge normally but cost 2 charges per cannon minion would fix it.

60 second charge for a 24 gold (19 for ranged, 5 for bonus) hit is 2gp5. That is awful. It still is decent vs. cannon minions, but if you waste charges on ranged minions, you're actively handicapping your team.

The even better alternative, as I see it, would be to make Relic (and the upgrades) only affect other people without the same item. That instantly fixes the abuse cases.


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HeadlessNewt

Senior Member

11-23-2013

As someone who's been watching the evolving double-shield meta on the Diamond featured games (and someone who hates seeing an item be mandatory on anything), I'm really glad to see this getting addressed quickly and openly by Riot.

Thanks for showing up and talking about it Xelnath.

To clarify: Spoils of War will give you the gold-share and heal effect when you last hit (either with spells or basic attacks) if you are Ranged or Melee, but will only execute minions on Melee champion basic attacks, correct?


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Diablo48

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Senior Member

11-23-2013

This is a little bit off topic and I have not played enough games to get a really solid feel for things yet, but it feels to me like all this gold supports are getting now is creating a new secondary item slot limitation by the old support items. I feel like they were designed with lower income streams in mind so their costs and stats are lower than the traditional carry-type items. I feel like I generally have to either limit my endgame potential by buying the cheaper support items or ignore them in favor of carry items. This is not really a problem in most cases even if the new gold stream items are affected to some extent, but it does seem to limit options because buying old support items like Mikael's Crucible and Ruby Sightstone just feels bad when you could be getting a big item like Rabadon's Deathcap or Warmog's Armor in that slot instead.


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TiberiusAudley

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Adjudicator

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Hey guys,
Focusing its identity
Finally, we're changing the execute proc so it only triggers on melee attacks. This is because we feel good about about Relic Shield and Brace of Targon create for characters who have to place themselves into danger to last hit. This should also reduce the pushing potential of a lane with ranged characters. We feel safer about melee champions having this pushing power because once they are under tower, their ability to harass the opponent is dramatically riskier.
My only complaint here -- is that the heal is healing the person not getting the kill. Meaning, if I'm putting myself in danger with this item, I'm healing someone who doesn't have to put themselves in danger. It's somewhat counter-intuitive.

Quote:
That said, we will be keeping an eye on the evolving nature of the game and want you guys to continue experimenting with the preseason changes. Once we have the Relic Shield nerfs fully tested and vetted, we'll bring them to you guys.

Jungle vs 2:1:2

We like that players are experimenting with the game. However, we want to make sure that whatever meta changes occur have clear trade-offs. Once Relic Shield is adjusted, we'll continue comparing jungler and non-jungler comps and make sure that there's a clear reason for doing them. Jungle should bring a distinct, clear advantage and risks, just as 2:1:2 brings its own advantage and risks.

Again, thanks for working with us to understand the preseason.
I'm elated to see Riot isn't outright gutting the emergent gameplay of Relic Shield and allowing the meta to potentially change around the item, and allow the item to be integrated into pointed strategies to be brought out in random games of a series.


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NUKE034

Member

11-23-2013

hey Xelnath, did you guys look at making relic shield not work if the ally has one? this item already gives the least gold of all the supp items, nerfing the gold income for supports is somewhat contrary to the goal of the item isn't it?


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Maximum Hexerin

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Relic Shield's execute will not proc on ranged attacks
so i'm no longer allowed to sacrifice my offensive ability during laning phase to give my support more income? kay, i didn't want to help my support anyways.


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Krazikarl

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneDragonArmy View Post
You find it unlikely that people can make a mistake just because they are higher level. A good scientist with professional research quality in mind recognizes that he and his researchers are human and can make mistakes. Even the best of us can fall into trends, look at all the pros using Shyvana because of perceived strength.
The thing is that essentially all the pros in multiple regions all reached the same conclusion within a day. There was no time for a copy cat stuff because everything is so new - this isn't a Kuhnian paradigm that people are blindly following, this is just everybody independently recognizing that one playstyle is obviously stronger than the other.


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Illiase

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
We'll keep an eye on thresh, but thresh has his E build-up which means he has better-than-average last hitting capabilities.

Is that still correct or am I missing something?
That's a good point, thanks for the reminder there. Don't think you're missing anything, either!


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IS17cc68647b4822bfede60

Member

11-23-2013

What about tank junglers who have been wiped off the face of the planet?

Is their gold income competitive with 2-1-2?