Relic, Rakkor and Face of the Mountain

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Krazikarl

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Once Relic Shield is adjusted, we'll continue comparing jungler and non-jungler comps and make sure that there's a clear reason for doing them. Jungle should bring a distinct, clear advantage and risks, just as 2:1:2 brings its own advantage and risks.
So you are essentially saying that a purpose of the season 4 changes is to make jungling OPTIONAL.

Previously, essentially no high level games (whether say Diamond/Challenger solo queue or professional organized games) happened without a jungler. It was a standard role.

But now you are saying that this is no longer the case - teams will have to choose whether or not they want a jungler based on "risks". So basically, the jungle revamps that Riot claimed where to make junglers stronger and more relevant late game, in fact, are intended in part to make the role optional in high level play.

Thats a hell of a change, and a hell of a way to upset about 20% of your player base.


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CombatCube

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Xelnath just so I'm sure on this:

The PBE changes list the charge time as going to 60 seconds. Your post says an increase in 50%. Are you sure you're mathing correctly? An increase in 50% would be going to 45 seconds.
Reducing the rate by 50% = increasing the charge period by 100%.

rate = 1/period

(1 - 0.5)*rate = 0.5/period = 1/(2*period)
where -0.5 is the percent change in rate

2*period = (1 + 1)*period
where +1 is the percent change in the period


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xbombr

Senior Member

11-23-2013

I don't think the recharge rate or anything like that is the problem with Relic Shield. In fact, I think that it might be better to buff the alternative items instead.

The problem is that the jungle changes occurred at the same time as the introduction of the new support mechanics. The new jungle items are awful. They require you to invest gold to feel the effects of the changes and the useful combat stats were taken off of the items. In S3, tons of people opted to go for a dorans blade start over the jungle items because buying jungle items meant paying for pve stats that wouldn't help you win a teamfight. The changes to the jungle items actually pushed even more people away from buying them for the same reason when the symptoms of the problems were there in S3.

The exp curve in the jungle is messed up now too. Not getting level 3 after the two buffs hurts a lot of early game reliant junglers and the introduction of the new camp does nothing but invalidate the golem camp for slower junglers. Heroes that don't have a great initial clear or weak early ganking will fall behind just as bad as they did in season 3, but with the support changes throwing more gold at duo laners, the only reason to jungle is for additional map control. The problem is that with an aggressive 2:1:2 set up, the jungler has to spend time in the 2v1 lane.

Basically, the reason Relic Shield is causing people to stop jungling is because it allows them to make a similar amount of gold and get a similar amount of exp without nearly as much risk. The only real cost right now is map control, but with everyone getting free wards, that really isn't as big of a deal as it used to be either.

There are push-pull factors right now. I hope that you guys are looking at the problems with jungling at the moment too.


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Kamquats

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Honestly I think that stacking of these items is what makes them so strong. Having two of these items in the lane means that both of the laners can bet 66% more gold on a minion wave without the cannon minion on average (if the two laners execute a caster minion and a melee minion each). If both laners buy this item in a duo lane and their opponents do not, then the lane with double Targons will have significantly more gold than their opponents, and everyone else in general. This effectively removes any sort of a midgame because the lanes get so much gold.

I'm not saying that the other changes should not go through. I'm saying that stacking it is a big problem, and that it should be addressed as quickly as the other changes are going through.


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LetsHarmonize

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Xelnath, I have been enjoying the preseason and would like to give some feedback for balancing the support items.

Please keep in mind that the Relic Shield is the only gold income item that gives bonus gold to your lane partner. Also, the execute can be used on cannon minions for 40 gold to the support and 45 gold to the marksman. That's 45 gold that came out of this item. The marksman gets 5 gold that he normally wouldn't get. It's not much, but it's something.

I think the fact that both laners benefit from this item (unlike the other 2 gold income items which are selfish) should mean that it has a weaker benefit for the support. Or maybe the "+ 5" should be removed to make it a selfish gold income item like the other two.

Also, Face of the Mountain and Frost Queen's Claim have very bad actives compared to Talisman. Please BUFF the two weak ones. Do NOT nerf Talisman.

Frost Queen's Claim should either
1) have its damage removed but slow duration increased to 3 seconds (I mean c'mon, BORK lasts 3 seconds); or
2) have its damage scale with AP (like Gunblade Active) or have a percent health calculation (like DFG)


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Devi Freak Mint

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Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazikarl View Post
So you are essentially saying that a purpose of the season 4 changes is to make jungling OPTIONAL.

Previously, essentially no high level games (whether say Diamond/Challenger solo queue or professional organized games) happened without a jungler. It was a standard role.

But now you are saying that this is no longer the case - teams will have to choose whether or not they want a jungler based on "risks". So basically, the jungle revamps that Riot claimed where to make junglers stronger and more relevant late game, in fact, are intended in part to make the role optional in high level play.

Thats a hell of a change, and a hell of a way to upset about 20% of your player base.
Junglers already spend *a lot* of time babysitting 2v1 lanes in competitive play. Consider it a way to make it not as bad.

As for solo queue, once they fix the jungle, it'll probably be pretty hard to justify an extra laner's utility vs the map control a jungler gives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsHarmonize View Post
Also, Face of the Mountain and Frost Queen's Claim have very bad actives compared to Talisman. Please BUFF the two weak ones. Do NOT nerf Talisman.
Pretty sure they already the expect [the item formerly known as Shurelya's Reverie] as the default pick.


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BROSEPHIROTH

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by WovN View Post
ok



uh



it's like i don't even know how to play the game anymore

but ty for your kind words :^)



so, like, amulet coin darius annie bot, right?



i'm in the top 3% of the NA server and even I don't experience the highest of competitive play, but lets pretend ranked doesn't matter and my opinion can be validated by how loud i can shout in text



people who play jungle generally doesn't like it.



yeah i suppose when items are never used its like they never exist



yay

but when i go up to kill a minion as blitzcrank i want to do it without the fear of dying to Bruiser support



some people will flame me for this but i really want the jungle role to be better than 2-1-2 lane if played properly

because it's too easy to win the 2v1 top. there should be reward in playing a role that has a higher skill floor than "lel just pick aatrox zac top and dive level 2 it's not like ur gonna get punished for it"

anyway, satire aside, good to see you're updating us on whats next (to abuse, maybe)
You whiny little ******. Learn how to play the game instead of whining about actual changes to it and demanding that Riot cater to exactly how you know how to play the game (the only way you know how to play, apparently).

Disgusting.


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YGY818

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Xelnath:

Wat.


Quote:
Frostfang: This is similar to how you can get extra gold from the Frostfang line if you stack auto attacks *and* spells when you harass.
UNIQUE - TRIBUTE: Spells and basic attacks against champions grant 8 gold, up to once every 10 seconds


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

11-23-2013
6 of 13 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazikarl View Post
So you are essentially saying that a purpose of the season 4 changes is to make jungling OPTIONAL.

Previously, essentially no high level games (whether say Diamond/Challenger solo queue or professional organized games) happened without a jungler. It was a standard role.

But now you are saying that this is no longer the case - teams will have to choose whether or not they want a jungler based on "risks". So basically, the jungle revamps that Riot claimed where to make junglers stronger and more relevant late game, in fact, are intended in part to make the role optional in high level play.

Thats a hell of a change, and a hell of a way to upset about 20% of your player base.
My mouth. It is suddenly full of so many words I did not put here.

I am a jungle main. I don't intend to allow junglers to disappear. A cursory analysis has shown that you get substantially more XP in jungle than sharing a top lane. Similarly, you get very competitive gold and very strong map pressure which forces lanes to play a certain way.

I'm not sure that 2:1:2 is as strong as people perceive it to be. This implies that players may be enjoying this because its new, novel or perhaps has some strengths that we don't clearly understand. Thus, it warrants further analysis, not brutal murder.


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Arance

Senior Member

11-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I'm reducing the rate at which you gain charges by 50%. For example, if Hashinshin posted once per minute, and we reduced that rate by 50%, Hashinshin would suddenly be unhappy.
You say this as if it were an abnormal state of being for him.